I am usually pretty on-board with, “hey, I know this comic is more serious than Shortpacked, but it’s still pretty goofy, allow for a certain leeway towards exagerated-for-comedy’s sake” as a take, but… yeah, this is kind of a Lot.
Imogen
Gloating over how hot “emaciated emo Ethan” like yeah Amber that was your friend and he’s not been eating well since his friend died a few months ago
Imogen
Also like there aren’t a hundred thousand extremely hot original gay works out there from small indie creators who deserve your money more than Disney does
Daniel M Ball
True dat. The gay characters in those works aren’t tokens put in to appease social media or make ‘representation’-they’re actual CHARACTERS. Disney just does Tokens.
DojimaKojima
i mean, despite Amber’s perspective, the gay(/LGBT) characters in this webcomic are pretty great too.
Angry doesn’t even BEGIN to cover how I feel about the practice of tokens and making “representation”, what with Disney and all those other bourgeois fucks who USE us as production value and getting social media rock hard about it. ???
I sure hope that I’m not the only one who feels this way.
The difference is that Amber is doing it to, what is to her, real people.
Those people are basically doing the same as Amber in panel 2.
Bluewind
Oh dear god! Someone concisely said something that took me a wall of text again XD
Heather
Yeah it’s kind of like how Cars 2 becomes pretty disturbing when you think that in their universe so called ‘lemon cars’ are real people left to eventually die because their parts aren’t going to be produced any more versus the reality of lemon cars in our own world which aren’t alive.
Heather
I know this is random but I recently had to watch that movie with someone and I remember thinking that when I first viewed it years ago. Like a lot of people say it sucked and it did but wtf Pixar I know Cars is just a merchandise vehicle (heh) but usually you put more thought into things back then.
Needfuldoer
The Mouse’s cash-grabbing aura must have been particularly strong while it was in production.
Jflb96
That just sounds like an analogy for for-profit healthcare, to be honest
Heather
And the lemon cars are the bad guys. They do bad things so as… not to die. And are mocked by the ‘heroes’ and narrative. I mean I guess if /any/ Pixar franchise was going to be enamoured with capitalism to even horrifying levels it would be that one.
It could have been, I think the bluesky Robots movie took that angle, but Cars 2 plays the Lemons as a villainous conspiracy. Like Cars is already a mindfuck franchise, but Cars 2 makes everything so much worse.
SuperZero
It’s not just that they’re real people. It’s also that she’s saying it directly to Danny. While Danny has a girlfriend. And Ethan is hurting and mad at Danny.
Logical fallacy my friend! Shipping people romantically or sexually who are fictional is fine as long as you aren’t toxic towards the real life people behind them (such as actors, writers, or creators) or share said shipping in a way that violates the boundries of others (or requests of those directly involved in the project). Doing the same with real people gets very creepy VERY fast, ESPECIALLY if doing so oversteps that person’s boundries, ignores social norms, fetishizes their identity (culture, race, gender, sexuality,…), or involves a minor. Doing things like applauding an existing relationship, setting up a blind date, thinking people might be cute together, noticing worrying patterns, offering to give advice/information, reacting to a breakup, offering support, and so on can all be done in a way that respects boundries and doesn’t slip into toxic territory.
Amber however isn’t doing that. In a universe in which she is real and he is real and Ethan is real, she is refusing to accept no as an answer, ignoring Danny’s personal boundries repeatedly, using her issues as an excuse to act how she pleases (a diagnosis is a tool that helps us live our lives and get the help we need), fetishizing Danny and Ethan, pressing Danny until he gives her an answer, ignoring an existing relationship that is closed, and practically asking her ex to make her porn or at least give explicit details. I’m not saying Amber is bad or we should all hate on her. Frankly, I think the girl needs a semester off to do a partial hospitalization program (see below for what it is) followed by long term therapy with someone who is trained in her issues and an evaluation for diagnosis and accommodations and/or medication. What I’m saying is what she is doing is wrong in context, she can learn from this mistake and grow as a person because it IS the mistake of a kid who is still developing a brain and running on hormones, and using her mistake to shame people OUTSIDE of the comic about their feelings/opinions about people INSIDE the comic is actually faulty logic and a dangerous one at that. Wielding shame like a weapon can hurt everyone in the process, including yourself.
If anyone is curious, a partial hospitalization program is a multi week outpatient program that involves individual therapy, groups, psycological education (works like a small class), and skill building. They meet 3-7 days a week for several hours per day. The program treats those with mental illnesses and/or addiction who are in crisis, close to being in crisis, or recently finished a 72 hour hold. It takes place at a physical location or over a video call, but the individual is still in their own home and isn’t given restrictions on anything, but the process is draining so a full time load at college on top of that is too much to ask of anyone. A variety of skills and coping techniques are taught so the person can both find things that work for them and be able to remain stable on their own and/or recover faster if and when a relapse occurs.
I went to one due to PTSD and depression. While I wasn’t in danger and was still doing everything I was supposed to be doing (like paying bills and seeing a doctor), I was in a bad place and nothing I did could pull me out of that hole. They kicked my ass, but damn was it worth it. Dealt with some stuff I thought I had already healed from. Got something to fight my intrusive thoughts with and the rest of the bullshit. Learned to see myself and my brain differently. Had some epiphanies. Set some boundaries. Made some honest mistakes and learned from them. Learned interpersonal skills. And on an on. I never knew they existed until about two years ago and didn’t experience one myself until a year after that, but damn glad I did.
ktbear
Oh good God, I see what you mean about the wall of text! However, sometimes thats what it takes. Thank you so much for sharing. Having spent five years in group and one on one councilling to address childhood trauma I can affirm the importance of learning those skills and little tricks that give you tools to address issues as they come up. Learning to love yourself is such a powerful thing too and, for me, meant the difference between “I cant be bothered” and “I deserve this!” So glad to see you found the help you needed when you needed it. *HUGGLES*
Right!? If she’s going to be touching herself in public, we should at least get to watch. Even masturbate indoors girl has the decency to do it beside the window!
The fact that she consistently devalues herself and casts herself as “garbage” or “the bad one” of her two distinctive identities. It’s often just a justification not to work on improving herself or hold herself accountable. Instead dumping all her good traits on AG. It’s actually kind of sad because Amber is a good person. She just chooses not to let herself be one.
2hich is funny because AG is still the worse side of her DID, in my opinion.
Chroma
the concept of a “good” and “bad” alter is a really harmful and ableist stereotype. please dont perpetuate it by saying there’s a “worse side” to someone’s DID
I don’t know a lot about DID, but I’m really sorry if I implied this with my Blade Runner comment down there regarding Amber, and I’m REALLY sorry if I caused you DID-havers any stress! ?
Dark
I didn’t say either side of her was good or bad.
But her AG personality is the one that literally puts her into situations that could be harmful to her physical health. That’s worse than just being a gross person with a Bisexual Fetish.
thejeff
Is it worse than saying one person is better or worse than another? Does them being alters instead of people in separate bodies change things that much?
Just straight up trashing either the Amber alter or the Amazing-Girl alter on their own doesn’t seem to draw the same response. Maybe there’s some nuance I’m missing.
Fox
The nuance is that it’s like trashing someone with depression, it’s trashing someone who is mentally ill for one of the symptoms of their illness.
Fox
* with depression for being depressed, it lost a chunk
Fox
The nuance is that it’s like trashing someone with depression for being depressed, it’s trashing someone who is mentally ill for one of the symptoms of their illness.
Lan
That’s not what’s going on here. People aren’t trashing her for having DID. They’re just saying that AG has worse behaviors than Amber. And, regardless, mental illness isn’t an excuse to treat people poorly nor does it in anyway absolve somebody of the consequences of their behavior
Fox
Above it was literally stated “AG is the worse side of her DID”, so yes that is what was said.
thejeff
So, we shouldn’t complain about Amber being creepy and gross here?
Or just that we shouldn’t compare her to Amazi-Girl when doing so?
Fox
You can certainly call her behavior or AG’s out as inappropriate, gross, etc. It becomes problematic when you call individual alters the bad one or good one, it’s the behavior that’s bad, not the person and that goes for anyone really, calling out problematic behavior doesn’t require throwing out the whole person.
Fox
I agree with Chroma. As somone who has DID, I second all of what they said. There’s no good or bad alter, only complex, traumatized alters who may be doing unhealthy things because they don’t know better ways of coping. Promoting this trope hurts, real people, so please don’t.
Dark
I’m not the one writing the character, only commenting on it. Amber needs help, but we all know she’s not gonna get it.
This is the internet, there’s basically only two stances on Mental Illness: Unrelenting hatred, and gross fetishization.
By the way, I didn’t mean that as a loaded question, I’m just curious as to what your particular stance on it is, and what you think counts as a “mental illness”.
Dark
Hm. We’ve gone too deep, I can’t reply to you directly anymore. Ah well, doesn’t matter.
My stance is, simply put, DID is a sign that your brain is functioning incorrectly. Much like Depression, Bipolar Disorder, ADHD, and a whole bunch of other issues.
It’s not something to be hated or treat people like they’re lesser over, obviously. That’d be fucked up.
But it’s also not something that people should aspire to have.
It is, like everything else I’ve listed, something that people need help to understand and deal with.
I’ve got high-functioning Autism. Not hugely debilitating, but enough to be annoying most days. And quite frankly, there isn’t a day that goes by where I’d be 100% happy to have a neurotypical brain, instead of one that can get easily overwhelmed by just any old shitstorm of things going on.
And then I go online and see people who act like having Autism is the best thing ever and it’s some kinda superpower. And I can almost guarantee that not a single one of those people actually HAS it.
Quite frankly, being Neuroatypical sucks. And I hate the people who fetishize it even more than I do the ableists.
If there’s only one thing I had to disagree with right off the bat, it’s referring to neurodivergence as the brain functioning “incorrectly”. I personally prefer to think of it at the brain “functioning differently”.
As someone with Social Anxiety Disorder, Vocal Dysphoria, enough obsessive compulsive tendencies to pass out inches from crossing the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder finish-line, sucking balls at the guessing game called “””social cues””, eye contact draining my energy, and lots of other neurodivergent stripes, I know how challenging it is to live with this kind of thing.
However, these personal challenges really don’t hurt me as much as getting swept up by big, overgeneralizing labels like “autism” and having people make really hurtful assumptions about me based on those labels OTHER PEOPLE decide for me, calling my personality a mental disorder that needs to be “cured”, having been physically and psychologically abused for decades because of that label.
I really just wish that the way we described neurodivergence was more like gender / sexual identity, were you can have more specific descriptors and less room for people to make hurtful assumptions, regarding both your abilities AND disabilities. Because the way the current categories are now, it’s like being forced to describe broken bones with choices of “70% or more are broken on the left half” and “70% or more are broken on the right half”.
Tell me, how many times do you reckon people have made hurtful assumptions you because of a label like “autism”? Do you think people would be less likely to make those assumptions if only we had better, more clear ways of describing our unique stripes of neurodivergence?
As an autistic person, I think if you tried to give me a neurotypical brain I would physically have to fight you. I’m one of those ones who likes how my brain works, it might not be a superpower but it’s definitely better than having whatever the fuck *not* my brain would be
Fox
Of course she needs help, but demonizing an alter in fiction sends a message in real life that’s not helpful. Nuance 100% exists online, I’ve seen it, and if you haven’t seen it you’re either missing it or looking in the wrong places. I’m autistic as well as having DID, so I get it’s hard, but to be frank learning to accept yourself where you’re at, while working to improve where you’re able, is what I see most often and that isn’t fetishizing it’s healthy and certainly better than hating yourself. Also, being proud of your differences isn’t bad either, there are of course people who take it oo far, but most of the time it comes from a place of hard-won self acceptance.
Icalasari
Hey, another Autistic & DID person
Still getting used to my alters XD Known they existed for less than half a year so it’s been an interesting time for mee
Fox
Hey, hope your doing well.
Daniel M Ball
Yer wrong. Okay, simply put, it’s not Amber’s DiD that is doing it, this has nothing to do with her mental health, and everything to do with her character and environment. Amber/Amazigirl may be two psyches sharing the same body, but what Amber’s doing? That’s not because of (or in spite of) Amazi-girl.
These are separate issues. Go back and re-read the series from the start, and look for how many times sexuality is pushed and discretion is mocked-what she’s doing is fully in tune with the culture she’s involved in. She’s not acting materially different from other people who also obsess over other people’s romantic/sexual activities, from the press hounding Robin, to Becky’s father, to how Jason lost his job. Whether it’s restricting or exposing, there’s an undercurrent of people wanting to meddle, (or at least watch) other people’s sexual lives and habits.
and we even have a classroom encouraging this. Amber is perfectly in tune with her environment, it’s just creepy because it’s exaggerated for laughs.
thejeff
Wait, what?
“to how Jason lost his job”? I could quibble about how the others aren’t that similar, but Jason didn’t lose his job because other people were obsessed with his romantic/sexual activities, but because he had a job where sexual abuse of people he had authority over is a serious problem and therefore is rightly banned.
Also not sure about “classroom encouraging this” unless you’re painting gender studies as a bad thing, which is a hell of a take.
I read it as “Hey. It’s me the co-inventor of Garbage Roof, known for my utter lack of shame,” implying that she doesn’t care how shitty her actions are. It kinda reminds me of the Hyperbole and a Half post about a certain kind of depression-as-superpower (because the apathy overcomes the social anxiety). This seems likely to end in a similar way.
Also specifically acknowledging that your ostensible friend is in an extremely self-destructive state and bragging about being the cause because they’re hotter now is… Like even as a joke that’s a pretty fucked thing to say
I was literally here in the comments section to see how quickly that was commented on. Because as creepy and gross as the objectification of two people is, the sexual objectification of someone’s ongoing suffering and trauma is DEFINITELY worse to me. Like neither is low on the gross scale, well done on that Amber, but- yeah, as you say, she’s BRAGGING about it. She seems downright smug at having had a hand in Ethan’s current state AND taking sexual pleasure in it and just. “Yikes” is simultaneously the only word and not remotely close to strong enough.
As I thought exercise I often swap the ostensible genders of characters.
Can you imagine a dude character going on about how hot his ex-girlfriend is now that her depression has caused her to lose a dangerous amount of weight, and bragging about it being his doing?
I think it’s for the same reason that the commentariat gave Mike a pass for being an asshole because he was an asshole all the time, because somehow bad behaviour is not as bad when it’s a pattern, I GUESS.
The main difference with Mike, massive asshole though he was, is how he was used. He was rarely a focus character, and those times that he was he was shown to be a fair bit less one-dimensional.
Most of his asshole moments, honestly, came in the final panel of a comic. It’s just a factor of the format, if you need to end most-to-all strips on a joke, having a character who can be easily inserted into a comic to make a joke is useful.
The difference here is that Amber is a main character, not a major secondary character like Mike was, and her… horrifically creepy stuff isn’t just coming in the last panel to end things on a joke.
… Yeah this is DEFINITELY some kind of self-destructing her relationships thing, because even when Amber’s a disaster she’s usually not quite this variety of disastrous.
Amber doing more of that thing she does where she angsts and beats herself constantly for being a shitty person yet when she ACTUALLY does shitty things, it rarely registers to her as wrong or bad at all.
I’m not “slash-shaming” her?? Amber’s being a really rude and inconsiderate creep right now. Not because of the “slash”. Because 1. shipping actual people you know is creepy and 2. TELLING those people about it is even creepier AND really rude, and 3. pressing on it after those people have made it very clear that they *really do not like it* is MAXED out creepy, invasive, and dehumanizing. Amber not only isn’t expressing any shame or regret about any of this, she’s happily defending herself. Like, the idea that she’s being a real shithead right now either isn’t occurring to her at all- which is bad – or it does and she doesn’t care – which is not just bad but makes her potentially dangerous to be around. That would mean that she SEES the boundaries Danny is trying to put down and that her choice to trample on them is deliberate. Which has really ugly implications for her character.
I actually mostly agree with this, except for one thing.
I dunno if shipping people you know is that much creepy, as long as you keep it ALL to yourself.
Zuzi
tbh I think it’s even creepier, especially if they’re people you interact with on a regular basis. Like, at least with real-person-ff about celebrities, there’s already some degree of separation and you don’t really know them at all, so they might as well register as a fictional character to your brain. Because with slashfic and fanfic in general it’s about exploring what you think a particular fictional character would do in whatever situation you’ve imagines and you can do that because they’re a fictional character with no autonomy. It’s why arguments saying cheesecake tittygirls dressed in bikini armor CHOSE to dress like that don’t work, because they didn’t choose to do anything. They’re made up people who follow the script their creators made for them.
But with friends, those are people that you know and love. They’re autonomous, sapient people with whole inner lives you have no idea of. Writing slashfic about your friends completely ignores that. Like honestly, if a close friend of mine told me that they wrote slashfic about me, I’d feel violated and lose a lot of trust in them. I wouldn’t even want to know what they wrote because I don’t want to see the fantasy they reduced me to, even if that fantasy is informed by the things they know about me.
Very true, but as long as you keep these ships not to seriously or even just all in your head, and as long as you don’t intend to make them happen in the REAL WORLD, there’s really no problem that I see.
Creepy as this kind of privately enjoyed shipping can be, it’s even CREEPIER to police people’s brains to see what kinds of private thoughts they have on their friends.
Thulcandran
Yeah, exactly.
If Amber learned that Danny was bi and Ethan had been flirting with him, apologized to Ethan for opening an old wound, and then went back to her dorm room to do whatever that had inspired with her hand and her pants in private, she’d be violating neither Danny nor Ethan’s consent.
temperaryobsessor
As far as I know no one is saying that having weird fantasies about your friends is less creepy than having them about celebrities. Just if you have them in the privacy of your own head its nobodies business but your own.
Committing your fantasies to paper without consent touches on creepy if its of real people and even more if they are not celebreties, but so long as you have no intent to share these with anyone else I think its a grey area.
When you start sharing your fantasies with others or when you try to push it into real life is when you become a jerk.
Wendy
Eh, I think it’s one thing to be like “I think X and Y would make a great couple, I hope they get together!” But actually being like “I *ship* these two people I know” kind of places two actual human beings into a context of fictional media fandom culture that I think is, at least, really weird. I’ll allow that MAYBE it doesn’t quite reach the category of creepiness until you start externalizing that mindset.
Thag Simmons
really depends on how you define shipping I suppose
268 thoughts on “Sex puppets”
Ana Chronistic
that
sure is a take
Jon
Nobody told Amber that Garbage Roof wasn’t an aspirational title, did they
Imogen
I am usually pretty on-board with, “hey, I know this comic is more serious than Shortpacked, but it’s still pretty goofy, allow for a certain leeway towards exagerated-for-comedy’s sake” as a take, but… yeah, this is kind of a Lot.
Imogen
Gloating over how hot “emaciated emo Ethan” like yeah Amber that was your friend and he’s not been eating well since his friend died a few months ago
Imogen
Also like there aren’t a hundred thousand extremely hot original gay works out there from small indie creators who deserve your money more than Disney does
Daniel M Ball
True dat. The gay characters in those works aren’t tokens put in to appease social media or make ‘representation’-they’re actual CHARACTERS. Disney just does Tokens.
DojimaKojima
i mean, despite Amber’s perspective, the gay(/LGBT) characters in this webcomic are pretty great too.
The Wellerman
Angry doesn’t even BEGIN to cover how I feel about the practice of tokens and making “representation”, what with Disney and all those other bourgeois fucks who USE us as production value and getting social media rock hard about it. ???
I sure hope that I’m not the only one who feels this way.
DarkoNeko
What the hell, Amber
Clif
And now all the people who wanted a Danny/Ethan slipshine will be mad at Amber for doing the same thing.
Dark
The difference is that Amber is doing it to, what is to her, real people.
Those people are basically doing the same as Amber in panel 2.
Bluewind
Oh dear god! Someone concisely said something that took me a wall of text again XD
Heather
Yeah it’s kind of like how Cars 2 becomes pretty disturbing when you think that in their universe so called ‘lemon cars’ are real people left to eventually die because their parts aren’t going to be produced any more versus the reality of lemon cars in our own world which aren’t alive.
Heather
I know this is random but I recently had to watch that movie with someone and I remember thinking that when I first viewed it years ago. Like a lot of people say it sucked and it did but wtf Pixar I know Cars is just a merchandise vehicle (heh) but usually you put more thought into things back then.
Needfuldoer
The Mouse’s cash-grabbing aura must have been particularly strong while it was in production.
Jflb96
That just sounds like an analogy for for-profit healthcare, to be honest
Heather
And the lemon cars are the bad guys. They do bad things so as… not to die. And are mocked by the ‘heroes’ and narrative. I mean I guess if /any/ Pixar franchise was going to be enamoured with capitalism to even horrifying levels it would be that one.
The Wellerman
“All that is solid melts into air…”
Thag Simmons
It could have been, I think the bluesky Robots movie took that angle, but Cars 2 plays the Lemons as a villainous conspiracy. Like Cars is already a mindfuck franchise, but Cars 2 makes everything so much worse.
SuperZero
It’s not just that they’re real people. It’s also that she’s saying it directly to Danny. While Danny has a girlfriend. And Ethan is hurting and mad at Danny.
There’s a lot of things that make it worse.
Bluewind
Logical fallacy my friend! Shipping people romantically or sexually who are fictional is fine as long as you aren’t toxic towards the real life people behind them (such as actors, writers, or creators) or share said shipping in a way that violates the boundries of others (or requests of those directly involved in the project). Doing the same with real people gets very creepy VERY fast, ESPECIALLY if doing so oversteps that person’s boundries, ignores social norms, fetishizes their identity (culture, race, gender, sexuality,…), or involves a minor. Doing things like applauding an existing relationship, setting up a blind date, thinking people might be cute together, noticing worrying patterns, offering to give advice/information, reacting to a breakup, offering support, and so on can all be done in a way that respects boundries and doesn’t slip into toxic territory.
Amber however isn’t doing that. In a universe in which she is real and he is real and Ethan is real, she is refusing to accept no as an answer, ignoring Danny’s personal boundries repeatedly, using her issues as an excuse to act how she pleases (a diagnosis is a tool that helps us live our lives and get the help we need), fetishizing Danny and Ethan, pressing Danny until he gives her an answer, ignoring an existing relationship that is closed, and practically asking her ex to make her porn or at least give explicit details. I’m not saying Amber is bad or we should all hate on her. Frankly, I think the girl needs a semester off to do a partial hospitalization program (see below for what it is) followed by long term therapy with someone who is trained in her issues and an evaluation for diagnosis and accommodations and/or medication. What I’m saying is what she is doing is wrong in context, she can learn from this mistake and grow as a person because it IS the mistake of a kid who is still developing a brain and running on hormones, and using her mistake to shame people OUTSIDE of the comic about their feelings/opinions about people INSIDE the comic is actually faulty logic and a dangerous one at that. Wielding shame like a weapon can hurt everyone in the process, including yourself.
If anyone is curious, a partial hospitalization program is a multi week outpatient program that involves individual therapy, groups, psycological education (works like a small class), and skill building. They meet 3-7 days a week for several hours per day. The program treats those with mental illnesses and/or addiction who are in crisis, close to being in crisis, or recently finished a 72 hour hold. It takes place at a physical location or over a video call, but the individual is still in their own home and isn’t given restrictions on anything, but the process is draining so a full time load at college on top of that is too much to ask of anyone. A variety of skills and coping techniques are taught so the person can both find things that work for them and be able to remain stable on their own and/or recover faster if and when a relapse occurs.
I went to one due to PTSD and depression. While I wasn’t in danger and was still doing everything I was supposed to be doing (like paying bills and seeing a doctor), I was in a bad place and nothing I did could pull me out of that hole. They kicked my ass, but damn was it worth it. Dealt with some stuff I thought I had already healed from. Got something to fight my intrusive thoughts with and the rest of the bullshit. Learned to see myself and my brain differently. Had some epiphanies. Set some boundaries. Made some honest mistakes and learned from them. Learned interpersonal skills. And on an on. I never knew they existed until about two years ago and didn’t experience one myself until a year after that, but damn glad I did.
ktbear
Oh good God, I see what you mean about the wall of text! However, sometimes thats what it takes. Thank you so much for sharing. Having spent five years in group and one on one councilling to address childhood trauma I can affirm the importance of learning those skills and little tricks that give you tools to address issues as they come up. Learning to love yourself is such a powerful thing too and, for me, meant the difference between “I cant be bothered” and “I deserve this!” So glad to see you found the help you needed when you needed it. *HUGGLES*
Decidedly Orthogonal
Right!? If she’s going to be touching herself in public, we should at least get to watch. Even masturbate indoors girl has the decency to do it beside the window!
Icalasari
Yeah, I’m skeeved out. What’s next, her trying to set up a Becky/Joyce/Dina three way, convincing Dina it’s for science?
Amber, you need some SERIOUS help
Wraithy2773
…what about it being you, Amber, makes objectifying and sexualizing your friends to their faces acceptable?
Sirksome
The fact that she consistently devalues herself and casts herself as “garbage” or “the bad one” of her two distinctive identities. It’s often just a justification not to work on improving herself or hold herself accountable. Instead dumping all her good traits on AG. It’s actually kind of sad because Amber is a good person. She just chooses not to let herself be one.
Dark
2hich is funny because AG is still the worse side of her DID, in my opinion.
Chroma
the concept of a “good” and “bad” alter is a really harmful and ableist stereotype. please dont perpetuate it by saying there’s a “worse side” to someone’s DID
The Wellerman
Oh! ?
I don’t know a lot about DID, but I’m really sorry if I implied this with my Blade Runner comment down there regarding Amber, and I’m REALLY sorry if I caused you DID-havers any stress! ?
Dark
I didn’t say either side of her was good or bad.
But her AG personality is the one that literally puts her into situations that could be harmful to her physical health. That’s worse than just being a gross person with a Bisexual Fetish.
thejeff
Is it worse than saying one person is better or worse than another? Does them being alters instead of people in separate bodies change things that much?
Just straight up trashing either the Amber alter or the Amazing-Girl alter on their own doesn’t seem to draw the same response. Maybe there’s some nuance I’m missing.
Fox
The nuance is that it’s like trashing someone with depression, it’s trashing someone who is mentally ill for one of the symptoms of their illness.
Fox
* with depression for being depressed, it lost a chunk
Fox
The nuance is that it’s like trashing someone with depression for being depressed, it’s trashing someone who is mentally ill for one of the symptoms of their illness.
Lan
That’s not what’s going on here. People aren’t trashing her for having DID. They’re just saying that AG has worse behaviors than Amber. And, regardless, mental illness isn’t an excuse to treat people poorly nor does it in anyway absolve somebody of the consequences of their behavior
Fox
Above it was literally stated “AG is the worse side of her DID”, so yes that is what was said.
thejeff
So, we shouldn’t complain about Amber being creepy and gross here?
Or just that we shouldn’t compare her to Amazi-Girl when doing so?
Fox
You can certainly call her behavior or AG’s out as inappropriate, gross, etc. It becomes problematic when you call individual alters the bad one or good one, it’s the behavior that’s bad, not the person and that goes for anyone really, calling out problematic behavior doesn’t require throwing out the whole person.
Fox
I agree with Chroma. As somone who has DID, I second all of what they said. There’s no good or bad alter, only complex, traumatized alters who may be doing unhealthy things because they don’t know better ways of coping. Promoting this trope hurts, real people, so please don’t.
Dark
I’m not the one writing the character, only commenting on it. Amber needs help, but we all know she’s not gonna get it.
This is the internet, there’s basically only two stances on Mental Illness: Unrelenting hatred, and gross fetishization.
The Wellerman
You really don’t think there’s any room for nuance?
Dark
Oh, I definitely do.
I’m just saying, those are the two stances I see 99.9% of the time when browsing the internet.
The Wellerman
Do you think you have a stance between those two alleged binaries?
The Wellerman
By the way, I didn’t mean that as a loaded question, I’m just curious as to what your particular stance on it is, and what you think counts as a “mental illness”.
Dark
Hm. We’ve gone too deep, I can’t reply to you directly anymore. Ah well, doesn’t matter.
My stance is, simply put, DID is a sign that your brain is functioning incorrectly. Much like Depression, Bipolar Disorder, ADHD, and a whole bunch of other issues.
It’s not something to be hated or treat people like they’re lesser over, obviously. That’d be fucked up.
But it’s also not something that people should aspire to have.
It is, like everything else I’ve listed, something that people need help to understand and deal with.
I’ve got high-functioning Autism. Not hugely debilitating, but enough to be annoying most days. And quite frankly, there isn’t a day that goes by where I’d be 100% happy to have a neurotypical brain, instead of one that can get easily overwhelmed by just any old shitstorm of things going on.
And then I go online and see people who act like having Autism is the best thing ever and it’s some kinda superpower. And I can almost guarantee that not a single one of those people actually HAS it.
Quite frankly, being Neuroatypical sucks. And I hate the people who fetishize it even more than I do the ableists.
The Wellerman
If there’s only one thing I had to disagree with right off the bat, it’s referring to neurodivergence as the brain functioning “incorrectly”. I personally prefer to think of it at the brain “functioning differently”.
As someone with Social Anxiety Disorder, Vocal Dysphoria, enough obsessive compulsive tendencies to pass out inches from crossing the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder finish-line, sucking balls at the guessing game called “””social cues””, eye contact draining my energy, and lots of other neurodivergent stripes, I know how challenging it is to live with this kind of thing.
However, these personal challenges really don’t hurt me as much as getting swept up by big, overgeneralizing labels like “autism” and having people make really hurtful assumptions about me based on those labels OTHER PEOPLE decide for me, calling my personality a mental disorder that needs to be “cured”, having been physically and psychologically abused for decades because of that label.
I really just wish that the way we described neurodivergence was more like gender / sexual identity, were you can have more specific descriptors and less room for people to make hurtful assumptions, regarding both your abilities AND disabilities. Because the way the current categories are now, it’s like being forced to describe broken bones with choices of “70% or more are broken on the left half” and “70% or more are broken on the right half”.
Tell me, how many times do you reckon people have made hurtful assumptions you because of a label like “autism”? Do you think people would be less likely to make those assumptions if only we had better, more clear ways of describing our unique stripes of neurodivergence?
The Wellerman
*hurtful assumptions about you
I. Fucking. Hate. Typos.
Diner Kinetic
As an autistic person, I think if you tried to give me a neurotypical brain I would physically have to fight you. I’m one of those ones who likes how my brain works, it might not be a superpower but it’s definitely better than having whatever the fuck *not* my brain would be
Fox
Of course she needs help, but demonizing an alter in fiction sends a message in real life that’s not helpful. Nuance 100% exists online, I’ve seen it, and if you haven’t seen it you’re either missing it or looking in the wrong places. I’m autistic as well as having DID, so I get it’s hard, but to be frank learning to accept yourself where you’re at, while working to improve where you’re able, is what I see most often and that isn’t fetishizing it’s healthy and certainly better than hating yourself. Also, being proud of your differences isn’t bad either, there are of course people who take it oo far, but most of the time it comes from a place of hard-won self acceptance.
Icalasari
Hey, another Autistic & DID person
Still getting used to my alters XD Known they existed for less than half a year so it’s been an interesting time for mee
Fox
Hey, hope your doing well.
Daniel M Ball
Yer wrong. Okay, simply put, it’s not Amber’s DiD that is doing it, this has nothing to do with her mental health, and everything to do with her character and environment. Amber/Amazigirl may be two psyches sharing the same body, but what Amber’s doing? That’s not because of (or in spite of) Amazi-girl.
These are separate issues. Go back and re-read the series from the start, and look for how many times sexuality is pushed and discretion is mocked-what she’s doing is fully in tune with the culture she’s involved in. She’s not acting materially different from other people who also obsess over other people’s romantic/sexual activities, from the press hounding Robin, to Becky’s father, to how Jason lost his job. Whether it’s restricting or exposing, there’s an undercurrent of people wanting to meddle, (or at least watch) other people’s sexual lives and habits.
and we even have a classroom encouraging this. Amber is perfectly in tune with her environment, it’s just creepy because it’s exaggerated for laughs.
thejeff
Wait, what?
“to how Jason lost his job”? I could quibble about how the others aren’t that similar, but Jason didn’t lose his job because other people were obsessed with his romantic/sexual activities, but because he had a job where sexual abuse of people he had authority over is a serious problem and therefore is rightly banned.
Also not sure about “classroom encouraging this” unless you’re painting gender studies as a bad thing, which is a hell of a take.
Rani
*chooses not to be one.
FTFY
Thulcandran
I read it as “Hey. It’s me the co-inventor of Garbage Roof, known for my utter lack of shame,” implying that she doesn’t care how shitty her actions are. It kinda reminds me of the Hyperbole and a Half post about a certain kind of depression-as-superpower (because the apathy overcomes the social anxiety). This seems likely to end in a similar way.
Thag Simmons
Also specifically acknowledging that your ostensible friend is in an extremely self-destructive state and bragging about being the cause because they’re hotter now is… Like even as a joke that’s a pretty fucked thing to say
Jason
I was literally here in the comments section to see how quickly that was commented on. Because as creepy and gross as the objectification of two people is, the sexual objectification of someone’s ongoing suffering and trauma is DEFINITELY worse to me. Like neither is low on the gross scale, well done on that Amber, but- yeah, as you say, she’s BRAGGING about it. She seems downright smug at having had a hand in Ethan’s current state AND taking sexual pleasure in it and just. “Yikes” is simultaneously the only word and not remotely close to strong enough.
Michael Haneline
As I thought exercise I often swap the ostensible genders of characters.
Can you imagine a dude character going on about how hot his ex-girlfriend is now that her depression has caused her to lose a dangerous amount of weight, and bragging about it being his doing?
JBento
I think it’s for the same reason that the commentariat gave Mike a pass for being an asshole because he was an asshole all the time, because somehow bad behaviour is not as bad when it’s a pattern, I GUESS.
Wraithy2773
The main difference with Mike, massive asshole though he was, is how he was used. He was rarely a focus character, and those times that he was he was shown to be a fair bit less one-dimensional.
Most of his asshole moments, honestly, came in the final panel of a comic. It’s just a factor of the format, if you need to end most-to-all strips on a joke, having a character who can be easily inserted into a comic to make a joke is useful.
The difference here is that Amber is a main character, not a major secondary character like Mike was, and her… horrifically creepy stuff isn’t just coming in the last panel to end things on a joke.
Regalli
… Yeah this is DEFINITELY some kind of self-destructing her relationships thing, because even when Amber’s a disaster she’s usually not quite this variety of disastrous.
Sunny
As I recall she also hasn’t slept in 24 hours or more by this point, so that probably also plays a role.
thejeff
There also may be a level of “I just can’t cope with the reality of what’s happened with Ethan, so I’m going to distract myself with this.”
The Wellerman
Amber, as much as I agree with you on Ethan’s hotness and wanna see you feel release,
DAMN! Maybe dial-it-back a bit on NOT keeping it to yourself?
Besides, it’s just gonna make it LESS likely to happen if you tell them like that!
Wendy
Amber doing more of that thing she does where she angsts and beats herself constantly for being a shitty person yet when she ACTUALLY does shitty things, it rarely registers to her as wrong or bad at all.
timemonkey
When you already consider yourself trash why care about being casually shitty? She has so much better shitty behavior to angst about.
Clif
Is slash-shaming a thing? I guess it is.
Wendy
I’m not “slash-shaming” her?? Amber’s being a really rude and inconsiderate creep right now. Not because of the “slash”. Because 1. shipping actual people you know is creepy and 2. TELLING those people about it is even creepier AND really rude, and 3. pressing on it after those people have made it very clear that they *really do not like it* is MAXED out creepy, invasive, and dehumanizing. Amber not only isn’t expressing any shame or regret about any of this, she’s happily defending herself. Like, the idea that she’s being a real shithead right now either isn’t occurring to her at all- which is bad – or it does and she doesn’t care – which is not just bad but makes her potentially dangerous to be around. That would mean that she SEES the boundaries Danny is trying to put down and that her choice to trample on them is deliberate. Which has really ugly implications for her character.
The Wellerman
I actually mostly agree with this, except for one thing.
I dunno if shipping people you know is that much creepy, as long as you keep it ALL to yourself.
Zuzi
tbh I think it’s even creepier, especially if they’re people you interact with on a regular basis. Like, at least with real-person-ff about celebrities, there’s already some degree of separation and you don’t really know them at all, so they might as well register as a fictional character to your brain. Because with slashfic and fanfic in general it’s about exploring what you think a particular fictional character would do in whatever situation you’ve imagines and you can do that because they’re a fictional character with no autonomy. It’s why arguments saying cheesecake tittygirls dressed in bikini armor CHOSE to dress like that don’t work, because they didn’t choose to do anything. They’re made up people who follow the script their creators made for them.
But with friends, those are people that you know and love. They’re autonomous, sapient people with whole inner lives you have no idea of. Writing slashfic about your friends completely ignores that. Like honestly, if a close friend of mine told me that they wrote slashfic about me, I’d feel violated and lose a lot of trust in them. I wouldn’t even want to know what they wrote because I don’t want to see the fantasy they reduced me to, even if that fantasy is informed by the things they know about me.
The Wellerman
Very true, but as long as you keep these ships not to seriously or even just all in your head, and as long as you don’t intend to make them happen in the REAL WORLD, there’s really no problem that I see.
Creepy as this kind of privately enjoyed shipping can be, it’s even CREEPIER to police people’s brains to see what kinds of private thoughts they have on their friends.
Thulcandran
Yeah, exactly.
If Amber learned that Danny was bi and Ethan had been flirting with him, apologized to Ethan for opening an old wound, and then went back to her dorm room to do whatever that had inspired with her hand and her pants in private, she’d be violating neither Danny nor Ethan’s consent.
temperaryobsessor
As far as I know no one is saying that having weird fantasies about your friends is less creepy than having them about celebrities. Just if you have them in the privacy of your own head its nobodies business but your own.
Committing your fantasies to paper without consent touches on creepy if its of real people and even more if they are not celebreties, but so long as you have no intent to share these with anyone else I think its a grey area.
When you start sharing your fantasies with others or when you try to push it into real life is when you become a jerk.
Wendy
Eh, I think it’s one thing to be like “I think X and Y would make a great couple, I hope they get together!” But actually being like “I *ship* these two people I know” kind of places two actual human beings into a context of fictional media fandom culture that I think is, at least, really weird. I’ll allow that MAYBE it doesn’t quite reach the category of creepiness until you start externalizing that mindset.
Thag Simmons
really depends on how you define shipping I suppose