269

Footprints
Posted on November 29, 2017 by David M Willis
Fourteen days left in this thing below.

269 thoughts on “Footprints”

  1. CandidCanid

    Okay, so yesterday I was basically Joe, quietly wishing Jacob to think the same thing.

    :F Believe me, I think Joyce deserves a great guy like Jacob, and I totally ship it, but this ship can only sail in treacherous waters. No matter how you slice it, Jacob slowly deciding that he wants Joyce/Sarah more and Raidah less is literally the best case scenario here. It could so very easily be messier than that, and it’s still underhanded chicanery to which I have a hard time giving my approval. Please tell me I’m not the only one this anxious about these events. x(

    1. Shiro

      I dunno. While no one is exactly pure in intent here, the way Raidah talked about his future and how he needed her to succeed was…offputting to me. Too stage-mom-y? Idk.

      1. Shiro

        …wait, I totally misread that, ignore me!

    2. Lexi

      It doesn’t seem underhanded to me. It seems like “A thing that sometimes happens, and maybe just sucks.”

      Although, I’m really, really curious what happens when Joyce comes home with a black boyfriend.

      1. Whirlwitch

        A black EPISCOPALIAN boyfriend. Let’s focus on what’s vital, here.

      2. Kinoko

        That’s actually one of the many reasons I’m shipping it. If she comes home with Jacob, who is fucking PERFECT for her (intelligent, respectful, supportive, shares many of her ideological and spiritual beliefs), and any of her family takes exception? It gives Joyce clarity into who in her family she can trust to support not only herself, but also Becky and Jocelyn, who need it most.

        1. Reltzik

          …. that hasn’t already been clarified?

        2. Liliet

          Hank is still a bit of a question mark

        3. Reltzik

          More of an ellipsis.

        4. Blackbird

          Mostly, but not entirely clarified. Joyce has three brothers and we have no idea where the third one (Jordan, I think?) falls on the “shit relative” spectrum.

        5. Lin

          Three siblings – Joyce has two brothers and a sister.

    3. Arawn

      What happens when the elevator doors open up and Raidah is there?

      1. Vukodlak

        Fun

        1. Reltzik

          Jacob asks her if she knows where to find a first aid kit.

        2. ugh

          ^ This. If Raidah loses her shit first and asks questions later then SHE is a terrible person. Right now Jacob is doing literally nothing wrong apart from a little flirtation which does not constitute cheating and should not be outlawed in a healthy/stable relationship.

          Sometimes relationships (particularly those in university or high school) are unstable and not meant to last. That doesn’t make anyone the bad guy, and Joyce’s intent to pry Jacob away from Raidah for Sarah is ~horrible~ but last I checked, Jacob has agency and opinions all his own. If he chooses to leave Raidah, then that is a choice he is perfectly okay to make.

          I’m getting sick of people acting like Jacob’s doing some shitty, weird, underhanded thing just because they personally aren’t comfortable enough to trust a partner in that situation.

        3. geno

          I’m sick of people assuming Raidah is inherently evil because our protagonists don’t like her.

        4. GJT

          They said “If” not “when”.

          And besides, we have seen enough onscreen to tell us she’s at least kindof a jerk, at best.

        5. ugh

          I said if, not when. I am hoping she ~doesn’t~ do a big blow up, but if she does then it ~will be~ the wrong thing and it would make her crappy.

          I do already and unrelatedly think Raidah isn’t a nice person, but that’s nothing to do with the protagonists liking/disliking her and everything to do with her going out of her way to disrupt Sarah with her presumed new friends at the mall when she first appeared. She had no reason to be cruel and did so anyway with her friends to back her up. Systematically ensuring someone is ostracized because they crossed you is a shitty-person thing to do and it makes Raidah a bully.

          Add to that the fact that she talked about Jacob like he was some errant and guileless puppy who needed her tender manipulations to become what he ought to? Yuck. Sounds a little too much like “I know what’s best for him even if he doesn’t” and that is abuser talk.

        6. thejeff

          I doubt she’ll do a big blow up. Not her style.

          If I’m right about her, she’ll be subtler and more manipulative about it. Or she may pleasantly surprise me – After that last conversation with her friends, I kind of doubt it though.

        7. Zee

          Well let’s see
          -lead a bullying and harassment campaign against Sarah for a year (note, did not just say a few bad things and cut her off. Actively harassed her in public and drop off anyone from being Sarah’s friend)
          -ableist (seen when she talked down to Dina)
          -after the truce with Sarah she still seemed to badmouth her to jacob
          -seems to be classist or at least has sent sort of eliteism about her (“ditsy education major” )
          -hasnt actually shown that she likes Jacob. When her friends told her to “be careful” she didn’t respond with oh no he cares about me too much, or no he’s not that kind of person. She responded by cutting down Joyce, saying she’s just a freshman and an education major, as if saying she’s far too below Jacob for that to be an option

          I’m not saying she’s evil, but we have genuine reasons for disliking her and thinking Jacob deserves better

        8. timemonkey

          I’m sick of people ignoring all the valid reason we already have to not like Raidah. There’s a reason the protagonists don’t like her.

    4. Deadjolras

      I accidentally misread “Jacob slowly deciding that he wants Joyce/Sarah more” as Jacob gradually developing into a Joyce/Sarah shipper. Should… Should I want this?

      1. Jamie

        I’m sure there’s a rule somewhere that says roommates should always ben shipped.

        1. BBCC

          Billie would agree with that rule at the start of this comic.

        2. Mr. Bulbmin

          Indeed: Shipping Rule #24. Any and all characters who are one another’s roommates, direct rivals, coworkers, or closest friends must be shipped, due to proximity if nothing else.

    5. Zach

      Also, Joyce could admit she sexually wants Jacob and stop crying when she masturbates.

      That’s a thing that could happen.

      1. Jason

        I’m… pretty sure Joyce has never masturbated. I think the closest we’ve come is her crying over a sexy thought.
        So… that’d be the first hurdle, being a-okay with sexy thoughts at all.

        1. Godfather

          I’m gonna second that. She’s extremely, extremely repressed, and it’ll take a whole hell of a lot of therapy (friend therapy, professional, romantic, in whatever way helps) to get her to accept her own romantic and sexual feelings as NORMAL. Which they are.

    6. Emily

      Really the only person in this mess I’m not side-eyeing the fuck out of is Jacob who has done nothing wrong possibly in his entire life. Like everyone else is basically trying to manipulate this dude to their own ends Joyce is just the worst at actually manipulating people.

      1. thejeff

        The only reason I’m not more upset at the other “conspirators” here is that they’re all pretty bad at it. The whole “manipulation” basically boils down to dressing Joyce up pretty and putting them in proximity.
        It’s still underhanded in intent, but in practice, not so much.

  2. Ana Chronistic

    Joe knows the TRUTH

    Joyce’s dirty-ass shoes were left behind, and her socks didn’t leave footprints

    (also Jacob carried her tho)

    1. Reltzik

      Technically, shoes leave SHOEPRINTS.

      1. Ozzi

        Joe also is a 15th dan master at this game. He sees this and doesn’t like it as it reflects his father’s behaviour

      2. Goshii

        Now lets not get podantic about this.

    2. Stu

      I’m genuinely unsure whether it’s suspicion over Jacob being in a relationship already, or whether it might be a bit of jealousy. And yes, I do ship Joe and Joyce, partially because they’re such opposites.

      1. BadMonkey

        Thank you. I was beginning to think I was the only one seeing it as possible jealously (whether Joe sees it as that or not).

        1. Clif

          I think Joe is just irritated because he doesn’t get the joke.

        2. Ana Chronistic

          he doesn’t dig it lololololol (but also prolly that it’s corny)

      2. Godfather

        DUDE. Me too. I don’t know why but I really do ship them.

        Combination of concern and irritation with a slight tinge of jealousy. That’s my guess.

  3. Doctor_Who

    The rules of comedy demand that the elevator break down and Joe be trapped in there with them.

    1. Arawn

      The rules of drama demand Raidah be there when the doors open.

      1. Rowanmikaio

        Why not both? The longer that they’re trapped in an elevator, the more likely that Raidah will hear about it and be there when it opens.

        1. Vukodlak

          Because by that point he’d have set Joyce down and they’d be sitting on the floor

      2. Doctor_Who

        Don’t forget that it’s really hot in there, so the guys have taken off their shirts.

      3. Durandal_1707

        The rules of drama state that the elevator’s oxygen supply is dangerously low, threatening to suffocate the trio if they don’t find a way out soon enough, and Joe refuses to work together because he’s angry at Jacob for having firebombed his home planet and just wants to watch him die.

        Oh, and also, Joyce needs to revert to her gelatinous state to regenerate, and will need to pool up in someone’s shirt.

        1. Needfuldoer

          You’d think she’d have a spare sleeping bucket or two hidden around the building.

          I’m sure everything will be fine once Rachel finishes integrating the rogue AI she found on a flash drive in the parking lot with the building automation system. Poor thing’s just lonely…

        2. Goshii

          While Carla is designing the winch that will keep the elevator from crashing to the ground. The winch will simultaneously cause a robot easy bake oven to follow mary around until which time the robot will throw the pie in mary’s face.

      4. Eldritch Gentleman

        Ultimate Drama Fusion. The elevator breaks down, it starts getting hot so they lose some clothing and then when it’s fixed Raidah is the first one to have a look inside.

    2. Tom T.

      The rules of comedy demand that Joe be trapped in there with them — and have to pee.

      1. Koms

        Rules of comedy dictates somebody farts.

        1. Doctor_Who

          Maybe Joe’s expression in the last panel indicates someone did.

  4. CleverTrousers

    The gentiles are at it again.

    1. Sporky

      I think Joe’s reaction in the last panel is supposed to be more about him being wary about their chemistry but TBH that’s all I can see too.

    2. Agemegos

      Yep.

    3. Brute

      i wish i could Like this comment.

    4. duckgalrox

      I am a Jew and that was kind of my reaction.

    5. Deanatay

      Either:
      a) Joe is uncomfortable with their flirting,
      b) Joe’s dawning feelings of jealousy about Joyce are bothering him (yes, I’m a Joece shipper),
      or most likely
      c) Joe is a Jew, and therefore doesn’t get the joke.

      1. Deanatay

        Mostly kidding about c). Mostly.

        1. Miri

          I’m a Jew and I’ve heard the poem before. The fun thing about being a member of a minority religion is you grow up learning an awful lot about another culture, either whether you like it or not, unless you live in an.isolationist pocket community.

          Non-denominational school? Still has hymns, teaches about major religious festivals at various points of the year, talks about doing good things which may or may not have a religious slant…

          Watch TV/read books set in [a variant of] the real world? Oh hi there Christmas/Easter/church weddings!

          School trips? Here’s a church, bunch of information about churches in general and this one in particular, and stories about dead people buried here. And this is a castle chapel. Similar.

          Joe may.not think the joke is funny but he probably gets it and is probably glad Joyce is feeling up to cracking a joke (even if he doesn’t like the flirt vibes he can sense between the two of them).

  5. Shiro

    …they’re perfect for each other. I’m so happy.

    Joe is so annoyed. He does not ship it.

  6. Ivy

    Joe doesn’t get it

    1. Reltzik

      Joe gets it, it’s just stuff from another religion.

    2. duckgalrox

      I heard the footprints story when I was a kid. Jews get exposed to everything Christian in the US. We can’t avoid it.

  7. AnvilPro

    Joe’s trying, but he still doesn’t get “relationships” yet

    1. DailyBrad

      I think he does enough to possibly not be cool with what he knows Joyce has been up to, driving that wedge in. We saw what happened with his dad, he isn’t cool with cheating, so he might not be good with this, even if it’s not exactly the same situation.

      Hard to say for sure yet, though.

      1. Dean

        Or he’s starting to realise that he likes Joyce, and is feeling jealous of their rapport.

        1. Inahc

          Why Not Both…

        2. Rawrlicia

          That is how I saw it! Same when Jacob picked her up. I secretly want Joe and Joyce to be a thing and have since It’s Walky.

          I adore Jacob, but they are TOO perfect! Kind of boring together if that makes sense.

      2. Lingo

        The only wedge Joyce is driving in is her toe into the exercise machine.

        OK, that’s a total lie.

    2. Marsh Maryrose

      What Joe does get is that Joyce just told a joke that he didn’t understand but Jacob did. (Joe being Jewish and the joke being an exclusionary Christian one.)

      1. Leorale

        Jews live with you, we’re just as likely to get those jokes. ; )

      2. Reltzik

        Joe grew up in Red ‘Murica. He got the reference.

      3. Betty Anne

        For being “exclusionary Christian,” that joke landed perfectly fine for this pagan-raised-atheist.

        If a gift shop in rural ‘Murica doesn’t have “footprints” on a shitty 12″x24″ print in a shitty wood frame for sale, that gift shop is not long for this world. :p

        As others said, Joe understood the joke just fine. He’s pissed that Joyce is helping/encouraging Jacob to “cheat” on Raidah (since he seems to consider looking/flirting as cheating, as well as dumping one girl immediately for another). Joyce told a joke that they both got, both thought was immensely funny, and demonstrated a note of chemistry between her and Jacob. That is something you Should Not Do in Joe’s world if you’re in a committed relationship with someone else.

        We begin to see why and how Joe’s outlook on committed relationships got so fucked up.

      4. Doki

        It’s kinda funny to me that so many non-Christians here are getting the joke, since I’m an atheist raised by vaguely Christian parents (I say vaguely because my mom, uh, definitely isn’t anymore), and I REALLY had to wrack my brain for what it could possibly be referring to.

        (And when I could think of something, it was just THAT WEIRD RELIGIOUS QUOTE I HEARD ONCE instead of anything I really recognized OMG)

    3. Felgraf

      No, Joe just had a very tense interaction with his father, who destroyed his marriage to Joe’s mother by cheating on her.

      Joe knows that Jacob is in a relationship.

      Joe can also see what’s starting to happen here.

  8. TrueVCU

    This meet cute CONFUSES AND INFURIATES JOE

    1. Pablo360

      Joe remembers that Jacob has a girlfriend.

      1. Shiro

        I started to be all teeeechnically nothing about that conversation is suspect without other context…then I looked at panel 4 again. Yeah, Joe has totally picked up on that.

  9. Doopyboop

    I like the extra detail of how pale she is. …Unless she’s always this pale, but she seems paler than usual which I’d chalk up to the injury!

    1. pjeseb

      Joyce is most definitely paler than usual.

    2. Reltzik

      You can see her turn pale between panels in yesterday’s comic.

      1. Doopyboop

        I caught that too! Seeing her face in this one made it even more clear, good on Willis because that is some good art consistency.

    3. ValdVin

      Very effective tool, last seen deployed (for other reasons) here.

      http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/personal/

      1. Doopyboop

        AAAA HOW DID I MISS THAT ONE IT’S PERFECT

  10. Some Random Name

    So Joyce is basically written as the author’s self insert, right? So maybe Joyce changes because she dates Jacob?

    1. Reltzik

      Among other reasons. Becky, Toedad, Ethan, Dorothy, Ryan, Toedad… basically Power of Friendship (and Hate).

    2. geno

      A lot of things make Joyce (and too a lesser extent Danny the original self-insert) grow as people. Time apart from their families, making new friends with different backgrounds, and those two clashing seem to be the biggest cause of character growth.

    3. Jason

      Most characters have little elements of Willis in them. Joyce certainly has the most, I believe, but I think it’s too early to say who- if anyone- will have a romantic experience inspired by his own.

      1. Gandalf007

        Has Willis ever said whether the Joyce/Becky “thing” (best friend turns out to be gay, and in love with you) was autobiographical?

        I realize that not everything that happens to Joyce is autobio (and for his sake, I really hope the Ryan incident was not), but if this was, I hope he is still friends with “Becky”, and they’ve found some measure of happiness.

  11. Yumi

    Joe, the appropriate way to deal with this situation is to pick Jacob up. Carry them both.
    Be the alpha.

    1. Pablo360

      OT3

      (except Jacob still has a girlfriend so I still don’t see it ending well)

      ((I mean, not that I know for sure that Raidah wouldn’t be okay with it))

  12. DailyBrad

    Interesting. Is Joe jealous? Irritated with Joyce doing this under false pretenses? Just finding this a little obnoxious? stay tuned!

    1. Najaru

      Having witnessed his father cheat on his mother, he probably isn’t thrilled with Joyce’s scheme to break up Jacob and Raidah.

  13. Larkle

    Is this a Bible joke that I’m not getting?

    1. Pablo360

      Not technically Bible, but look up “footprints in the sand”.

    2. Gryph

      Not from the Bible, but an extremely famous bit of religious poetry http://www.footprints-inthe-sand.com/index.php?page=Poem/Poem.php

    3. Shiro

      “One night I dreamed a dream.
      As I was walking along the beach with my Lord.
      Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life.
      For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand,
      One belonging to me and one to my Lord.
      After the last scene of my life flashed before me,
      I looked back at the footprints in the sand.
      I noticed that at many times along the path of my life,
      especially at the very lowest and saddest times,
      there was only one set of footprints.
      This really troubled me, so I asked the Lord about it.
      “Lord, you said once I decided to follow you,
      You’d walk with me all the way.
      But I noticed that during the saddest and most troublesome times of my life,
      there was only one set of footprints.
      I don’t understand why, when I needed You the most, You would leave me.”
      He whispered, “My precious child, I love you and will never leave you
      Never, ever, during your trials and testings.
      When you saw only one set of footprints,
      It was then that I carried you.””

      I have no idea who wrote it, and apparently wikipedia’s not sure either

      1. Bagge

        …and Jesus said, sand people always ride in single file to hide their numbers.

        1. Liquid Len

          Obi-Christ Kenobi? 🙂

        2. LordHaw

          Jedi Jesus!

          https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

        3. 3-I

          “And what about when there were three sets of footprints?”
          “Shit,” said Christ. “They found us.”

      2. Larkle

        Thanks for posting! (Thank you to other posters who explained as well.) The joke is much funnier knowing the context.

    4. brionl

      Not the Bible, but a religious thing:

      https://www.onlythebible.com/Poems/Footprints-in-the-Sand-Poem.html

      TLDR, only one set of footprints in the sand is when jeebus is carrying you through the hard times.

  14. Keulen

    I understood that reference, though I prefer parodies of it.

    1. Doctor_Who

      My favorite.

      1. Roborat

        I find it amazing that no matter what the situation, there is always an XKCD that fits.

    2. 3oranges

      Chainsawsuit had a little collection too.

    3. ValdVin

      Sometimes it’s not the good folks who carry you:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSeS7vTEkHE

  15. Passchendaele

    This is the worst possible moment for Joyce to barf, sooooo she will. And then Joe will smile, no longer poisoned by the sweetness.

  16. Stephen Bierce

    In Soviet Russia, Jacob’s Ladder Climbs YOU.

  17. Opus the Poet

    So are Joyce’s shoes still on the stair machine?

    1. Beef

      No, that’d be rude. They’re beside it.

    2. Bagge

      The other shoe has not yet dropped.

      1. adjudicus

        Nah, it’s still shoehorned into the machine

  18. Bagge

    Dooooooooofus 🙂

    1. Reltzik

      ….. singular?

      1. Bagge

        ….es 🙂

  19. Keulen

    Joyce and Jacob are adorkable together, I can’t help but ship them.

  20. Tacos

    Well this is awkward…

  21. JessWitt

    Joyce is likely to be a laugh riot on ChristianSingles.

    1. Marsh Maryrose

      Either that or she comes across as everyone’s grandmother.

  22. Jess

    A little while ago Joyce showed Joe how inappropriate his behavior toward women was. Maybe now Joe will show Joyce how inappropriate her behavior toward Jacob is? That would certainly be poetic.

    …As well as one of the few ways I can see this ending even remotely well. Not that Jacob and Joyce aren’t sweet together. But. BUT. B U T.

    1. Unusually Angry Hippie

      And then Joyce will bust out her tried-and-true hypocrisy for the first time in quite a while, insisting that it’s different for her because…reasons that don’t actually pan out very well at all.

      1. thejeff

        Well, it is very different. There are certainly problems with her plan, but they’re not really even loosely related to the ways Joe’s behavior was a problem.

        1. Josh Spicer

          But boy oh boy are they still not good. I’d even say on the same level but I can understand why others wouldn’t.

        2. Gwen

          Behaving badly towards one specific person < behaving badly towards most women on the basis of their gender

        3. Josh Spicer

          Okay, when you put it that way. I guess I just have more experience with marriage’s falling apart because of a cheating father.

          Not saying you’re wrong. Clearly you are right. This isn’t sarcasm either, despite how it might seem.

        4. Gwen

          We all have things that get under our skin emotionally and affect how harshly we judge others’ behavior. It’s actually really refreshing how non-defensive you’re being about disagreement over a really fraught topic.

        5. Jason

          Not only that, but hanging around with one person and telling yourself you hope they grow to like your friend isn’t – in my opinion- remotely comparable to Joe’s behaviour on a one on one basis. Just look at how he tried to seduce Joyce despite knowing she wouldn’t want that. Joyce’s end wish may be considered almost comparable- a desire for relations regardless of someone’s wishes- but her intent (as she tells herself) is to try to tell him she’s pretty awesome and he’ll decide for himself.
          At this point, of course, her wish ISN’T for Sarah, but I suspect that had she acknowledged such to herself she would not be okay with her behaviour either. And I do believe she hasn’t acknowledged it.

  23. Big_B

    Like an accidental stowaway, I don’t remember boarding this ship but here I am…

  24. Nicster216

    Wait……is Joe……JEALOUS?!

  25. Kinoko

    Joe’s not digging it.

  26. Deadjolras

    It’s time to play “Why is Joe upset?”! Is it:

    a) jealousy?
    b) annoyance because these two are obnoxiously adorable together?
    c) extreme disapproval because he knows Jacob is a relationship that Joyce wants to break up (either for Sarah or for herself)?
    d) disgust because the elevator probably stinks of sweat and smelly feet?
    e) ALL OF THE ABOVE.

    1. newllend(henryvolt)

      ….E but mostly C as a runner up awnser ?

    2. Agemegos

      f) Gentiles bonding over Jew-exclusionary banter.

      1. Marsh Maryrose

        I don’t think that particular banter is likely to be engaging as far as Buddhists or Baha’is are concerned, either.

        1. Agemegos

          Or Muslims, or Hindus….

          Joe is Jewish, though.

      2. Reltzik

        Ima say b, f, and maybe c.

      3. thejeff

        Is it really that exclusionary? I guess the poem is Christian in origin, but it seems like the basic sentiment could apply to Judaism, or really any (monotheistic?) religion.

      4. duckgalrox

        As we’ve stated above, American Jews cannot avoid that stupid story. It’s on bookmarks, chintzy coasters, Hallmark cards…

        1. thejeff

          Nor can atheists and it’s far more exclusionary to us.

          It always seemed pretty “generically religious” to me.

      5. ugh

        Even IF Jewish people somehow didn’t have eyes or ears or the ability to read that stupid poem on every-flippin-thing…it’s not ‘exclusionary’ to make a joke based on a shared cultural knowledge/understanding. It wasn’t anti-semitic and it wasn’t whispered to exclude him.

        Frankly, I’m a lot more shocked by how many people seem to think Jewish people are that easily offended/confused.

        1. Agemegos

          Indeed not. Religions divide and isolate people without the people involved intending that. Dietary restrictions work the same way as shared references and shibboleths. The kids who want to organise “voluntary” prayers in their classrooms don’t mean to isolate and intimidate the religious minorities in their classes. They genuinely believe that praying together is including and unifying. It’s another thing that they are wrong about.

          Including and unifying members of your religion (etc.) automatically excludes and isolates non-members whether you mean to or not.

        2. thejeff

          I get organizing voluntary classroom prayers and such, but I’m not sure that all shared references to religion qualify – especially when they’re not really part of the religion as such, but more tacky American cultural kitsch.

          Should people never mention anything about religion or with religious overtones? Should Jacob have shushed (a near delirious) Joyce with a “Not now, there’s a Jew here”?

          For another example: Joyce and Jacob’s theological conversation after the pizza lunch. That was definitely them excluding both of the others with their shared interest, despite Sarah almost certainly being at least nominally Christian.

    3. Badgermole

      I’ll go with c. I think if Joe was jealous he would look… sadder. While here he looks more disapproving and Not Cool With This.

    4. Kinoko

      Joe’s already onto Joyce for trying to break up Jacob and Raidah. He clearly voiced his disapproval once already.

  27. Solenoid

    doooooooooooooooooofuses

  28. OnyxIdol

    Joyce and Jacob, sitting in a tree…

    1. OnyxIdol

      Also I have two interpretations for Joe’s frown here:
      1. He sees in them something he doesn’t like, namely stupid emotions and attraction, something he’s been trying to avoid because he doesn’t want to hurt somebody and doesn’t want to be hurt himself.
      2. He sees the possibility that Jacob will “betray” Raidah and he doesn’t like that because it reminds him of his dad.

    2. DonDueed

      … mangling Christian poetry.

  29. newllend(henryvolt)

    No, panel 5 is the look of a man who has finally piece together what Joyce was talking about when she said this: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/01-face-the-strange/wooingarts/

  30. Kathleen

    You know who really needs to come clean? SARAH.

    Joyce still thinks Sarah has a crush on Jacob and that she is doing Sarah a favor. Sarah needs to talk to her and let her know what’s up so Joyce can make an informed choice.

    1. Bagge

      But that might get in the way of the goal of hurting Raidah.

      The feelings and emotional health of everyone involved is an acceptable sacrifice, right?

      1. ValdVin

        I think the arc phrase in question is “acceptable losses”.

  31. Badgermole

    Joyce and Jacob’s Christian banter is… not appealing to me as banter. I can see sass is being attempted but it sounds like corniness.

    1. Kinoko

      Don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t appeal to me either, but what’s wrong with being corny? Maybe that’s what they like?

    2. OnyxIdol

      I call it adorable christian dorkiness.

    3. thejeff

      At least here, I’m not even sure it’s really “banter”. More like Joyce is really out of it and blathering.

    4. 3-I

      Joyce just attributed the words “Like a doofus” to Jesus Christ.

      How is that not hilarious?

      1. Gwen

        That hadn’t even dawned on me. Thank you for pointing it out; it makes the strip even funnier.

  32. Antonio

    Joe is probably uncomfortable with the flirting considering his dad regularly cheated. Jacob IS in a relationship, after all.

    1. Kole

      how in the world is it cheating, she’s joking around with him. Straight ppl are wild

      1. Inahc

        This is reminding me of “I’m not touching you!”

      2. ESM

        By Joyce’s standards, this is pretty serious flirting. Whether or not Jacob knows it, Joe is fully aware.

      3. BBCC

        Joe might be worrying that he WILL chat on Raidah, not thinking he currently is. These two get pretty flirty.

      4. Deadjolras

        At the very least, Joe knows Joyce is actively looking to break up Jacob and Raidah, something he’s already against. Because of the fourth panel and the very specific denial in this strip (http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/01-face-the-strange/wooingarts/), he’s probably realised (or, at the very least, suspects) that Joyce is not looking to break up Jacob/Raidah for Sarah, but for herself instead. And that’s not cool no matter how you look at it.

        Also, because of their expressions in the fourth panel, I’m inclined to agree that this is flirting. I don’t think either Jacob or Joyce are aware of what they’re doing, though.

        1. CoMa

          I’d say that it’s likely that they are accidently flirting, and if that’s done, one most often only becomes aware of it after the flirt (or towards the end of it). I seem to have done that in the past, without being aware of it, although for me it was 90% just enthusiastic talk about topics I liked and shared with the person I talked to.

          Though it depends on what counts as flirting and whether it is flirting if the other party hasn’t the intention of it being like that, because they don’t have flirty feelings (which in this case seems unlikely, but hear me out):
          I mean, there was one incident at a friend’s home with our friend group during which I completely normally talked to another friend’s boyfriend about training in the gym (because he was literally the only person from our group to have experience in that), and afterwards my friend told me that her mother (who was there too, it was her home) thought I was flirting with him – when I was definitely just talking happily about the gym – and nothing else. And I was flabbergasted to be ‘accused’ of that, when the other party involved in the conversation was the boyfriend of another friend, whom I’ve always seen as that, and never had any flirty-ish feelings towards.

          Not that this applies in this case, but still both of them might just become aware of the situation afterwards, Joyce might take some time (as she’s still acting under the “It’s for Sarah”-theme, and I doubt she can distinguish flirt from non-flirt), but Jacob might become aware of it faster. OR he’s like me in the bf-flirt-situation mentioned above. But as other people pointed out the chemistry between, that’s unlikely

        2. CoMa

          (Just to clarify, this doesn’t consider the overall circumstances of the situation, with Raidah and Joyce trying to act for Sarah etc., just the flirt in this specific situation, and their possible unawareness of it – I repeat, possible. It’s just me spouting my thoughts and speculations)

  33. Gesc

    Yesterday I thought Jacob was catching up on what Joyce was doing. Now I’m reminded the first word of the webcomic is Dumbing.

    Yeah, this is several levels of not okay and at least one person in the elevator knows. I wonder if he’ll speak up?

    1. Kole

      I dont really see how it’s “not ok” I mean, they’re bonding over shared interests. If you’re in a relationship, your feelings don’t just… turn off. What will make it not ok if is stuff actually starts happening and Raidah wasn’t informed. If your feelings change and you break up for someone you’re more compatible with that’s not… not ok, it’s just being honest.

      1. OnyxIdol

        Except from what we have seen so far, J’s and R’s relationship isn’t much about feelings at all. Jacob is with her because she doesn’t want to have sex with him, and Raidah just wants a presentable husband.

        1. OhPun

          Oh, come on! Joyce could be a champion at not having sex with Jacob!

      2. the final pam

        It’s not okay because Joyce is expressly hanging out with Jacob with the intention of wooing him for Sarah, effectively destroying his current relationship with Raidah. It’d be different if this was completely natural, but with Joyce blatantly saying “Oh, Jacob and Sarah would be perfect together!” and trying to make it happen while he’s still in a relationship? It’s shitty yo

        1. Liliet

          I’d say results and actual actions count for more than intentions. Joyce’s intentions are sketchy but she’s not actually doing anything wrong nor making anything worse; I say it’s okay.

        2. Emily

          That’s really only true of good intentions. Bad intentions are equally damning regardless of how effectively you carry them out. Being incompetent and doing wrong doesn’t actually make you a better person just a more inept one.

      3. Ellegos

        The problem is that I seem to remember Joe confronting Joyce about her attention to hook up Jacob with Sarah despite the fact that he’s in a (as far as anyone is aware) happy relationship with Raidah. I guess he doesn’t approve of Joyce continuing to pursue that without being upfront about those intentions. He likely sees this as an extension of that. If there’s one thing Joe seems to be consistent about, it’s being upfront about what you are after.

      4. thejeff

        “No, really Joe, we’re not flirting or anything. Just bonding over shared interests. By the way, can you give me some tips on the wooing arts?”

        Joe’s reaction is informed, as ours should be, by the stated intentions of breaking Jacob and Raidah up. There’s no level on which this is just innocently happening.

    2. Terry

      I agree with those who said that Joyce isn’t doing anything wrong. Yes, she wants Jacob to break up with Raidah, but she is not being underhanded. Jacob is well aware that Joyce wants him to date Sarah. She has been very straight-forward about that. Jacob has humored her with the knowledge that she isn’t going to succeed. Both innocent in this instance.

      Those who ship Joyce and Jacob are again not really doing anything wrong. They want Jacob to break up with Raidah to date Joyce, but the only thing they have done is put the two of them together on the assumption that they fit well enough that they will want to date. Something that would happen eventually anyway if they spent enough time together. The worst part of this is Sarah’s manipulation of Joyce.

      At the moment, it seems that they are both falling for each other but are in denial. Jacob because he is already in a relationship and Joyce because she believes that Sarah likes him and it would be wrong of her to do that to a friend. Both will probably have a bit of a crisis when they realize their own feelings (I’m assuming this realization will be facilitated by Joe soon for one of both of them).

      1. Samantha

        Thisssss

  34. Bagge

    My takeaway from all this is how great Jacob and Sarah would be together.

  35. chris73

    Joe knows this will end badly, Jacob would probably be very unhappy hes been manipulated (he doesn’t like being treated as an object), Joyce would probably be guilt stricken at having helped caused a break up (once her initial infatuation ends and Raidah will probably seek revenge against Sarah so really its a lose-lose all round

    Except for those that stay for the drama

    1. HMH

      Also, I’ve seen nobody bring up that Joe just became persona non grata for more than half the campus for treating people like objects. It can’t feel good for him, if from his perspective it feels like a bunch of the only women he’s actually close to are doing something so similar.

      1. thejeff

        I’m not sure it’s all that similar really. Maybe for Sarah, but Joyce is definitely interested in Jacob as a person, not just an object – I mean sure, she swoons over the muscles, but she’s actually falling for the attitude and the gentleness and the shared interests and everything else.

        It’s still a problem in my mind, but a very different one.

  36. nlips

    The ship is sailing, sailing….

  37. Nyrakthebird

    Am I the only one around here who ships Joe and Joyce?!

  38. Danni

    joe clearly does not dig it

    1. Reltzik

      Of course not. He’s not into broken-boner moments.

  39. ESM

    I’m intrigued by the possibility that Joe is starting to mentally equate Joyce with his dad.

  40. J

    I want this to happen. I need this to happen. But … this ship is a time bomb. Even still, I’m hoping they can work through it. The two of those idiots together could be sweet & adorkable. Even without the complications of Raidah & Sarah, both Joyce AND Jacob are in for a rude awakening with their own inner demons slowly developing critical mass.

    1. Reltzik

      Sarah’s not a big time bomb. Once she realizes Joyce is hooked, she’ll cheerfully switch to letting Joyce claim Jacob. (And then gripe about moments like this one.)

      Raidah… is… well, it’s not going to be pleasant in a thousand possible ways (and Willis is keeping us in suspense about which one or more ways it will be). But that time bomb seems likely be survivable.

      I don’t really know that Jacob has inner demons, and Joyce is actively confronting hers and Jacob’s helping a bit. Doesn’t sound like a recipe for disaster.

      1. J

        To be 100% clear, I never said she was. Sarah’s one of my favorite characters. And neither is Raidah. I *AM* saying that the time bomb has nothing to do with Sarah or Raidah except tangentially and except with regards to how Jacob thinks Raidah is vital to his success. I was emphasizing that even without Sarah & Raidah, this is going to be … interesting. Joyce & Jacob are both young and adorkable, true, but I think they’ve got a lot of … um growth and character development ahead. From everything I’ve read up to this point, I get the very strong feeling there are some rather juicy plot points just ahead.

      2. J

        Oh, and sorry to piggyback with my comments like this, but Jacob absolutely has inner demons.

    2. J

      OH FOR HIS NOODLY SAKE. Why is my new avatar … Mary’s FAAAAACE?!!

      1. Reltzik

        Change a few letters in the capitalization of your email below the comments field. Same email, just a few letters capitalized instead of lower-case. You’ll get a different grav.

        …. just don’t do it more than two or three times in a day, or the system will hate you forever (ie, you might be barred from posting with the name J).

  41. Reltzik

    I just realized.

    Jacob is carrying Joyce to Ruth for possible first aid.

    ….

    …. before 6 AM.

    1. Shiro

      With everyone dressed in exercise clothing and probably covered in sweat

      She’s either gonna immediately figure out the situation or go “damn, kinky”

    2. J

      Noooooooooo. Ruth, nooooooo.

  42. Jasie

    Someone help me I’m shipping EVERYTHING

    1. Deanatay

      UPS or FedEx?

  43. BenRG

    “I’m sorry, Joyce is out of the building right now!” Poor thing; learning all the fun parts of delirium! I do hope that she’s okay in the end!

    Now… That look in panel 5: Joe is jealous of Jacob, I think! Either that or he thinks Joyce did this deliberately and he’s giving her the stink-eye over it! If it’s the former than a ship is definitely setting sail and it’s the latter one can only wonder how many times he injured himself in an attempt to pick up a girl!

  44. laladoria

    Is that jealousy or is that just plain old disapproval?

    I can’t wait to see this arc progress . . .
    Which likely means we will be seeing something different tonorrow.

    1. Nobody

      I would say disapproval, Joe knows Jacob is in a committed relationship and Joe really really hates disloyalty thanks to his father

    2. BenRG

      I think that there is an element of confusion in it too. Joe is in at the ‘ground floor’, if you will, of a relationship of sorts and it is very, very different from how he normally preceives them to be. He probably is having a difficult time properly following exactly what is happening.

      1. Agemegos

        Good point.

        Very mixed feelings for Joe: he’s got a lot going on.

  45. Brute

    I’m sorry but Joyce is an ENTIRE PERSON. he’s just carrying her like i’d carry a large cat but she’s an almost fully grown human being aaaa
    like it looks super unrealistic, but at the same time i’ve been carried almost as easily by someone thinner than me so it’s not unreasonable to think Jacob could do this. i’m just amazed by, like, how muscles work I guess.

    1. A Scientist

      I’m nowhere near Jacob’s strength, but I could probably also hold someone Joyce’s sizelike that for a decent while if I got my arms into an efficient position. Five minutes, maybe ten, no more than that, but how long will it take them to get where they’re going? I think it’s reasonable.

      1. HMH

        Also, Jacob is freaking jacked as fuck. Joyce isn’t tiny or anything, but she’s not large and not heavy, and Jacob looks like he’s at least 6’2″ and 250+lbs. She may be an entire person, but she is actually like half the size of Jacob.

    2. Agemegos

      When I was Jacob’s age — neither as big nor as muscular as he — I used to run and jump carrying 120kg of sand-cement or pre-mix concrete. One time I lifted the end of a (small, front-wheel drive) car. Young women are a bagatelle.

      (Note: this is why my knees are wrecked; do as I say, not as I do.)

  46. Samantha Johnson

    I really hope Joyce and Jacob end up together i ahip it. I think they could be really good for eachother once they come cleam. I definately can see Jacob being forgiving ebough to forgive Joyce for meddling if she come clean and thry have sucj natural chemistry and would be the perfect medium for balancing eachother. Joyce would grow up and learn from much. More mature and open minded Jacob about relationships and joyce would help Jacob loosen up and embrace goofiness and whimsy which he seems to be enjoying a lot in their interactions and even help Jacob with his sexual addiction as he learbs to healthily explore sexuality with joyce. Now I dont think the relationship could be permanent but i like it and want it to be a thing for at least a while

    1. Nobody

      You see I’m the opposite, no matter how it goes down between those two and Raidah I see no way Joyce doesn’t get hurt (along with the other two), Jacob might not even have sex addiction in this universe (he certainly doesn’t yet), and Jacob is too safe Joyce won’t grow from tolerating a slightly different church and eating food a slightly different way for his approval. I think they’ll get along great as friends and should stick to that.

  47. Hoodiecrow

    I haven’t read all comments, so I apologize if this point has already been raised.

    There is so much talk about where this is going, and ship this, ship that.

    I like where this has arrived to.

    Joyce was nearly raped a couple of weeks ago, and has been cautious and pained by this, possibly made worse by her own repressed interest in boys. Now she’s weak, unable to run away, lightly clad, being held by a very strong man and in the presence of another strong man who for her represents a sort of sexual predator. She is still sort of relaxed as these guys have earned her trust.

    What if they’re not falling in love? What if Joyce is just thinking she’s safe and cared for, and Jacob is just thinking that he sees why Sarah of all people fell in sisterhood with this goofy little girl.

    There is definitely a moment between Joyce and Jacob here, but does it have to be a relationship moment? How about a friendship moment?

    1. A Scientist

      Absent the context of how Joyce talks about Jacob, sure, that’s possible. But we’re not absent that context. Joyce very clearly has a thing for Jacob. Now, from Jacob’s end, we don’t know enough to say this isn’t just a friendship moment for him, but we definitely know what Joyce is thinking here.

      1. A Scientist

        Of course, this does not prohibit them from a perfectly healthy platonic relationship. Someone can have a crush on someone else, the feelings not be reciprocated, and end up in a wonderful friendship with them, I know from experience on both sides of the scenario. I hope they do end up being good friends, who have opening and explicitly communicated the nature of that friendship, but they haven’t done that yet. Or at least Joyce hasn’t.

    2. Nobody

      I would really like that but unfortunately have my doubts

    3. Vulcanodon

      That’s a lovely observation and almost certainly part of what’s happening. Though Joyce has had fantasies about Jacob’s… wares.

    4. Liliet

      Yes!!!
      I also like to look at what’s happening right here more than at what might or might not happen in the future, and right now Joyce is feeling calm, safe and protected being carried by a big man in the presence of another big man alone with them in an elevator. She’s come such a long way in her recovery in such short time <3 and this episode is going to help, too, once she's able to reflect on it and consciously recognize she was right to trust these two and nothing bad happened.

      1. Gwen

        Yes. Shows how far she’s come from here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/furthest/

        And as someone recovering from PTSD, it’s little moments like this that help track progress (oh hey, I went to a bar and didn’t keep my back to the wall the whole time!)

  48. NinjaNick

    Panel four is filled with cuteness.

  49. Dave M

    And here we go, a Joyce/Joe/Jacob romantic triangle. I’ve seen this movie I think. One of them turns out to be her brother right? 🙂

  50. TomHCinMI

    Does Joe not get Joyce’s joke? Or does he just think it’s inappropriate right now?

    1. C.T Phipps

      I think Joe is jealous.

      1. Felgraf

        I think it’s (as I said in another thread) that Joe-
        1) Just had a tense meeting with his dad, who destroyed Joe’s parents marriage by cheating
        2) Knows that Jacob is in a relationship
        3) Can see what’s going on here, even if Jacob can’t.

        Joe REALLY doesn’t like cheating. Like, Joe hates the idea of cheating to the extent that it *utterly molded his world view*.

        (Remember, so far as we know, his entire (toxic) pickup-artist no-real-relationships persona was crafted *explicitly to make sure he was never in a position to cheat on someone*, that all his encounters were one-night-stands that would never lead to something. )

        1. Bagge

          Of Joyce? That’s just silly. She is practically excised from his “do” list. Why would he be jealous. Look how not jealous he is.

          http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/boyspizzaretreat/

        2. Zaxares

          That’s just it though. Joyce was perhaps the first girl he had an actual friendship with that didn’t involve sex in some way. And now that he’s come to the realization that his prior attitude towards women was unhealthy AND he’s seen his dad get into what seems to be a committed relationship, it’s perhaps understandable that he might feel some sort of jealousy.

        3. Bagge

          Probably, yes. And I think there is a HUGE case of “could have been”. If Joe had been less of a douche, if he had had his realisation earlier, if he had been a bit… more like Jacob, then HE could have been the one trading soft smiles with Joyce right now…

  51. ValdVin

    I’m enjoying how we’re all dissecting the feels in the elevator. If Willis’ goal was to get fans to fixate on the love polyhedron, it’s certainly working.

    Tangentially, will this need a trip to a 24-hour clinic attached to the hospital? (There’s gotta be one, right?)

    1. Betty Anne

      Not necessarily. My local choice (and by local, I mean less than a two-hour drive) for a “24-hour clinic” is the ER. Even Urgent Care is only daytime hours, Monday-Friday, with limited daytime Saturday hours.

      If Joyce ended up needing doctor care out of this in my neck of the woods, she’d either being going to the ER or waiting until 8:00 AM, then making an appointment that (if she’s lucky) will be sometime before noon; if it’s something the clinic can’t handle and she has to be sent to the hospital, she’ll then get to drive over there and wait a couple hours. :p

  52. Crumplepunch

    I don’t think Joe digs it.

  53. Mandy

    I feel you, Joe. I feel you.

  54. Betty Anne

    “I can see what’s happening…”

    “What?”

    “And they don’t have a clue!”

    “Who?”

    “They’ll fall in love, and here’s the bottom line: our trio’s down to two.”

    “Oh.”

  55. Tyce

    Man, both of those boys have been skipping leg day!

  56. Kryss LaBryn

    Now kiss.

    1. ValdVin

      That never works.

      http://www.shortpacked.com/index.php?id=1731

      That hardly ever works.

      1. Roborat

        Nicely done.

  57. Pat Myers

    Joe, you were supposed to bring Joyce’s sneakers. You had one job, Joe.

  58. Gojira

    Why are you playing tagalong, Joe? Jacob’s got this. Three’s a crowd man.

    1. BenRG

      Normally, that would be Joe’s thought processes too. However, in this case, it’s Joyce and his (as far as Joe knows) happily committed-to-Raidah friend, Jacob. He just can’t let himself think that this is okay.

    2. Reltzik

      Because he’s concerned for Joyce and wants to show support and be sure she’s okay? By now he knows Jacob well enough to realize that he’s not trying to pick up Joyce.

      …..

      …… waaaaaaait…

    3. Roborat

      because they need someone to one doors, push buttons, etc.

      1. Roborat

        argh, open, not one.

  59. Tealjoy Grove

    I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’m Joe right now. This is serious, you’re pale in the face Joyce!

  60. PB

    Oh no this is cute

  61. Lulu

    Next Slipshine moment, Jacob and Joyce make out in the elevator while Joe watches from the side and can’t join in or get out.

  62. ruhrow

    OK, but…did nobody grab her shoes?
    #smalldetails #priorities

  63. ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

    Remember to danny responsibly, folks. Excess danny can lead to health problems and a tendency to be too up in everyone else’s sex life while your own wilts.

  64. Trumoo

    I just wanted to try commenting!

    1. Bagge

      I think it went pretty well!

    2. Joyful

      Can I try too? It didn’t really work last time I think.

    3. Roborat

      One of us!

  65. Cerberus

    Oh dear, they are meet-cute flirting at each other…

    And Joe is like “I might have a lot of issues surrounding consent, but cheating is one thing I have laser like senses on and I am livid.”

    1. Bagge

      Very platonic flirting-and-laughing-and-sharing-common-jokes-while-soft-smiling-at-each-other-with-Joyce-wrapped-in-Jacob’s-strong-arms I’m sure.

  66. Agnes Nitt

    Besides all the flirting stuff I really enjoy Joyce being able to make a religion-themed joke! She probably wouldn’t have done that a few weeks ago.

    1. Bagge

      For me it feels a bit like when Joyce and Becky joked about God having a DVR. Some silliness is allowed for something that is such a big part of your daily love as God is for Joyce.

      http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/dvr/

      1. ValdVin

        I wonder if Joyce was encouraged to joke about religion stuff as a kid. Now she’s doing it with her (New) Best Friend, the (gasp) athiest.

        http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/distressed/

  67. Remmington Steele

    DON’T LOOK INTO HER EYES!!!

  68. Puckish Rogue

    Ok so this is going to end really, really badly and a lot of people are going to get hurt but…

    Its quite nice that Joyce feels safe while wearing form fitting clothing and being in close proximity with two, large men

    1. ailorn

      These are large men she knows and are on the “protector” list, possibly like Walky but bigger.

  69. Jack Spade

    Ok, so this is how I see the next few pages unfolding:
    Raidah walks in and starts doing a bongoy-jealous girlfriend. Joe sees this, and stands up for Joyce and Jacob. Raidah continues bongoing, and Joe decides that she is a really bad match for Jacob. Sarah and Becky find out, and bring him into the “Fuck Raidah Club” (FRC for short). Then we can have a member of each of the three ways someone can want a relationship broken.

    Sarah wants the relationship dead because solely fuck Raidah (since she was the first member of the club she gets the name).
    Becky wants to kill the relationship because Joyce deserves to get Jacob (The most morally questionable of the three)
    And Joe believes that Joyce would be better than Raidah for Jacob (the moral high ground of the three, funnily enough)
    And if such the trinity of breakup conspirators will work together to fuck Raidah. Also put Joyce and Jacob together but first things first and all that.

    1. Jack Spade

      I meant bongoy not bongoy, what ever the heck that’s means.

      1. Shiro

        Jack Spade, meet the censor. Censor, Jack Spade.

        1. thejeff

          That censor is a real percussion instrument.

  70. Ferret

    Reminder that for all that Joe has, up until his recent foibles, been a pig, he’s at least been an *honorable* pig who respects the concept of relationships and monogamy enough to stand for it even if he has no personal interest.

  71. CorporateDronesDontHaveMissiles

    And then Joe rips off his shirt, because he can no longer ‘dig it’.

  72. Tenchan

    Looks like Joe has been bitten by the Green-Eyed Gozangas!!!

  73. Hari

    Uh oh!!! Will there be a fight over Jacob?

  74. Jose Alfredo Villalobos

    Has this been mentioned yet?
    http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2012/08/08/footprints-in-the-sand-part-1/

  75. CK

    I can’t decide if I’m more disappointed in the fact that I immediately got Joyce’s joke, or the fact that I actually find it funny. Curse you, Catholic upbringing!

    1. PB

      Same boat, my friend.

  76. J Corkey Custer

    The footprints riff is the very best thing ever.

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