I feel like that’s something the comic is never going to delve that deep into.
Which, positives and negatives. It makes the whole protest arc feel a bit shallow for me but at the same time, it’s not like I really WANT the whole comic to refocus on geopolitical stuff.
Nicepainter
Yeah, not everything can recontextualize current events like Superman did, and I wouldn’t want the comic to grind to a halt to explain it’s version of those events unless they’re really important to the plot since I read comics to escape the real world for a little bit
Psychie
Technically Superman didn’t recontextualize any current events, the script was finalized before the whole kefluffle in Isreal/Palestine kicked off, hence why literally the only similarities were that there was a genocide going on in the middle east, it was sheer coincidence that a genocide in the middle east occurred. Coincidences like that DO happen. The fact that there were parallels to draw at all was just serendipity (or ill-fortune if you consider the Snyder fanatics used it as an excuse to call the movie “woke” and crap on it more than they were already going to).
TTT
Andor s2 was also written and filmed beforehand.
Ymbrael
Both of these things were written decades, nearly a century, after the formation of the occupation and displacement; a project explicitly described as colonial in nature by it’s head architects. This isn’t a “centuries of nebulous conflict/oppression” argument, this is an objective description of a political project that is moderately well documented, but most people are horribly informed about because of it’s proximity to the dominant cultural hegemony and most powerful propaganda engine (Pax Americana, and even when the USSR was around to challenge Pax Americana, that Cultural Hegemony also often supported the colonial project for it’s own reasons).
Psychie
And nobody in the US was kicking up a significant fuss until just recently. The Superman movie could have been made a decade ago and be shot for shot identical and nobody would be saying it was about that conflict, instead they’d be drawing parallels with whatever genocide was going on a decade ago that was making waves in the media at the time. I have no recollection of what it might have been, but I’m sure there was one, because there almost always is one.
Sebastian Temples
The kefluffle as you put it didn’t come from nowhere. It was seventy-five years of occupation and genocide in the making. Opperation Cast Thy Bread (One of the earliest war crimes committed by Zionists against the Palestinian people) was enacted six months into the Palestine War (the conflict which established the colonial state of Israel.)
The parallels between the script and the actively ongoing genocide aren’t less cutting because the script was written during a lull in the active killing.
And, even if the script and cast were already locked in before October 7 2023, there was room to bring the parallels into starker contrasts: Wardrobe, Acting, and Directing all would have been on-going through the first year of the current genocide in gaza, and Editing through the second.
To dismiss as coincidence what was clearly intentional feels rather disrespectful to skill of everyone involved.
TTT
The oppression and genocides Jews suffered in Ottoman and British Palestine and neighboring areas goes back far longer than 75 years, longer than Israel or anything that looks like modern Zionism. Where one chooses to mark the beginning of the history that “counts” is very much a political decision.
We should all be leery of a fandom-ized interpretation of real world tragedies, especially when that fandom comes with headcanons like “this creator must see things my way, and if they say they don’t, it’s just an act.”
zee
Jews were not uniquely oppressed in the Ottoman empire. They fled *to* the Ottoman empire to escape persecution from Europe. They had to pay a non Muslim tax, same as the Christians, but otherwise Jewish culture thrived under the Ottomans. I’m not gonna say it was a walk in the park but point those genocidal accusations at Europe, Spain was expelling their Jews and Portugal was forcing conversion
thejeff
I do love the focus on discrimination against Jews in the Muslim world to paint Jews as victims of ages of Muslim oppression and thus unable to live in peace and justified in claiming the land of Israel for there, while simultaneously ignoring even longer oppression from Christians which should prove that Jews can never reconcile with them either.
Jews have definitely been fucked over by everyone at various times since antiquity. No denying it. Overall, it looks to me like the balance would have Jews living in Christian lands worse off than in Muslim countries – though there are obviously exceptions in both directions at various places and times.
The modern situation has been relatively brief, driven by sympathy after the Holocaust on the Christian side and the Zionist movement first trying to establish itself and then eventually founding the state of Israel in the Levant on the Muslim side.
Odo
I generally see two lines of complaints over this.
The first is that the use of a Palestine parallel was handled insensitively with regards to the real human suffering in the world. This complaint generally focuses on how the protests were used as a backdrop for a romance arc, or how Willis hasn’t seemed very engaged with the subject before now.
The second is complaining that it “lacks nuance”, or otherwise doesn’t portray it as a “both sides” issue.
I have respect for certain criticisms in the first category, but the latter just seems like it comes from people who oppose criticising Israel. They complain because the comic paints their side as bad.
Psychie
Except we also have direct word from the director that it wasn’t inspired by Israel, and frankly I didn’t see anything that painted it as Israel specific. There was a genocide, that genocide took place in the middle east. That is where the similarities both start and end. There have been plenty of other genocides in the middle east over the years. And frankly while there have been previous periods of violence in the Israel/Gaza area that got some amount of publicity, I don’t recall anyone here in the US caring quite as vocally about it until now, so it seems weird to claim that any of that history would be relevant to the idea that the creators of the Superman movie cared enough to make intentional references to it.
They made a generic genocide between two fictional countries, and it happened to bear a passing resemblance to the genocide that kicked off while it was in production. The creators deny there was inspiration there, and frankly there are only so many ways to depict a genocide that it’d bear a passing resemblance to any other genocide that might have occurred in the middle east at that time instead, it’s not like that’s the only major conflict between two ethnic groups going on over there.
It wasn’t blatant, because it wasn’t a reference. I keep seeing people call it a blatant reference but I’ve yet to see anybody actually explain WHAT they think makes it so obviously about Israel/Palestine beyond the fact that it’s a genocide taking place in the middle east. What are the parallels that you are seeing that I’m not? What are the direct references? What makes Boravia Israel and not any other middle eastern country? What makes Jarhanpur Palestine and not any other middle eastern country? Why is it not relevant that in the movie it was one country invading another and not a civil war like the conflict you all keep claiming this is supposed to be representing?
The fact of the matter is that we get extremely little information about the nature of the conflict in the movie, or the cultures of the two countries. Heck the only character from either country that even gets a line is the president of Boravia and his lines give us nothing to go off of to conclude anything about his country, it’s culture, or it’s religion (if that’s even relevant). Because it ultimately doesn’t matter to the story. All that mattered to the story was that there was a genocide and Superman opposed it because genocide is bad. You can draw parallels from that to literally every genocide ever in all of human history, because they are all bad and Superman would be just as opposed to them.
Delivery McGee
There’s pretty much always one genocide or another happening in the middle east. Israel/Palestine, Saddam/Kurds, Turks/Armenians … it happens so often it’s a handy plot for a protest story arc even if it’s not happening at the time of writing.
Bajja
Wut
BorkBorkBork
We’re not supposed to think about it too deeply at all. The comic makes it clear that the protesters are right, and the naysayers are wrong, and that’s pretty much that.
That’s not a criticism on the comic, but just a reality of life. For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it. And to those who really don’t care, why, they’ll listen to whoever’s opinion they trust most and take it up as their own, because they didn’t have a horse in this race to begin with.
We all think we’re unbiased, but very, VERY few issues in the average person’s life are approached with a blank slate and no preexisting bias, with all perspectives equally analyzed and weighed. And that’s not a slight on anyone – I mean, hell, I trust that scientists are right about the earth being round, even though I’m not an astrophysicist and couldn’t begin to do all of the necessary calculations to prove it. I consider Flat Earthers fools even though I’m trusting others for it.
We all have only so many spoons. You can’t realistically do all the legwork yourself, not if you want to live life having opinions on the vast majority of things.
I mean, come on. How many times have you seen an argument online go something like, “I don’t care what else you say, your side does _____ and that’s inexcusable.” When what that means, is that this person found the point at which they don’t need to keep thinking about the issue. For Hank, that’s “Terrorism.” For Dorothy, that’s “Genocide.” And Dorothy would argue to Hank that it’s not actually terrorism and Hank would argue that it’s not actually genocide, and both would walk away feeling more vindicated and righteous for facing the radical.
Of the entire named cast who was at the protest, it’s likely that Jocelyne is one of the few who examined the situation fully from both angles, having been raised in her household and then deciding for herself later something different.
Skewbrow
This. Also, the world would be better off without polarized news coverage, or, worse, news coverage only from your social media bubble. The bad news is that… that’s the reality for uncomfortably many normally well meaning folks.
eh, whatever
I mean, hell, I trust that scientists are right about the earth being round, even though I’m not an astrophysicist and couldn’t begin to do all of the necessary calculations to prove it. I consider Flat Earthers fools even though I’m trusting others for it.
Just go on a reasonably high mountain and look.
deliverything
Or watch ships coming over the horizon; notice how you see the top first, while your view of the bottom’s still obstructed by the water? That’s a consequence of the curvature of the water, itself a consequence of the gravity of the curved planet.
Well, either that or it’s a ghost ship rising from the depths, but repeated observations should debunk this hypothesis.
Perhaps more convenient, but not available in all places: in some locations, you don’t even need the ship — there are places where tall buildings are visible over the horizon but their lower floors are hidden behind the Earth’s curvature.
Just to add: Flat Earther’s foolishness isn’t in disagreeing with the scientific consensus, it’s in vehemently making claims without testing them, while outright rejecting counterarguments without due consideration.
By contrast, someone who hasn’t yet considered the issue might implicitly assume the world to be flat but doesn’t have the rigid beliefs of an actual Flat Earther.
Wizard
Some did test the theory. The problem is that their tests were deeply flawed and didn’t actually prove what they claimed. The story is similar for many conspiracy theories. Supporters put forth “evidence” that’s either false or fails to prove they claim it does.
> For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it.
See, this is why I find human beings so frustrating – at least the neurotypical ones. I don’t know if this is an autistic spectrum thing or just *me* thing, but I’m absolutely *not* wired that way.
There is a model in my head of reality.
But I know that is *not* reality.
What you are describing is people trying to search for evidence to support that their model of reality is the correct reality.
I don’t. I seek to improve my model of reality. If I find evidence that contradicts that model, I adjust the model to account for that evidence, if the model cannot account for that evidence, then I know the model is based on faulty principles.
This is a conscious choice. It’s something I have *chosen* to do.
But it baffles me that most people do not make that choice.
Orden
It’s a pretty simple concept, isn’t it?
The assumption that you do not, in fact, know everything that is, and therefore, your view of reality is imperfect, and always will be.
I mean, that’s true for literally everyone that has ever lived, so it’s hardly unique. And yet, there are so few people that manage to figure it out.
However, to really live by that, two things are required. The ability to admit being wrong, and the willingness to strive to improve. The first is foolishly seen as an admission of weakness, and the later is a tremendous amount of difficult, frustrating, and thankless work.
Most people just won’t bother.
Good thing I’m stubborn.
BorkBorkBork
OMG, I’m pretty sure this is the first time someone has mistaken me for neurotypical.
I’m not sure if it’s an autistic spectrum thing or not, but I 100% hear you, except for one thing. For the things that I don’t care about, I *really* don’t care about. Like, I could talk for ages about the narrative role that Booster plays in this story and how in some ways they ARE a reboot of Mike’s role, but sit me in a room with a real-life Booster and suddenly I really need to check DekuDeals to see if there’s any good sales going on.
Anyways. When I say “for most of us” I mean for most of us humans. And I’ve gotten that view after years upon years of banging my head against the wall wondering why on earth we all act so tribalistic and afraid of listening to one another. Why we come up with pejoratives to describe people used to think like us but changed their mind.
And what I got, mostly, is that most people are afraid of change and the unknown. They have their view of reality and the idea of shaking it up or tearing some or all of it down – and especially of admitting you were wrong on something – is like trying to redesign your boat while you’re sailing it. You’re going to have a breakdown.
Also that people really, REALLY like being right. And because they often feel their own inadequacies very strongly they get some sort of joy from tearing down others so they can feel more right. There are some people who just don’t feel complete unless there’s a battle to be won and an enemy to vanquish.
There are lots of ways to prove that the Earth is round. Some of them you can do at home. Given a stick, a couple of widely separated points, and some basic geometry, you can even make a pretty good estimate of the size.
BorkBorkBork
I picked “flat earth” because it’s something that I feel like we all can 100% get behind, without people accusing me that I’m trying to secretly advocate that the world is a flat disc perched atop the shoulders of four elephants standing on top of Great A’Tuin the Turtle.
… though surprisingly it’s working out beautifully, because so far most people have latched onto that, and mostly either shared sites that talk about it, or other people who talk about it, or better yet, just saying that the other side is flawed.
Show of hands. How many people here have stood looking out over the horizon with a spyglass, specifically to see the bottom of the sailboat disappear on the horizon? It’s not something you’d be able to really see well with your naked eye. Of those who had, how many of you had then run controlled experiements so that you know that what you’re seeing you can attribute to the curvature of the earth, *quickly Googles* a trick of the light, with atmospheric refracting?
How many of you have calculated the geometry that John Campbell mentions yourself? How many of you have coordinated with someone in Alexandria while you stood in Aswan to see the length of your obelisk’s shadow? How many have done any information gathering at all, earnestly, for the other side?
I haven’t. I trust that those before me have. I trust that when Carl Sagan explains that Eratosthenes puzzled over the differences in shadow, that he measured properly. I trust that the reason why Polaris stays at the same point in the sky is because it lines up the neatest with the rotation of a round Earth, and I trust that up in space there’s not one astronaut gaping at a giant disc perched on a turtle while another astronaut holds a gun to his back, saying “Always has been.”
The flat earthers have. How do I know? Because they get it wrong! Human knowledge is based off of all of us collectively adding our knowledge together, proving and disproving each other. Jeff Goldblum’s character in Jurassic Park criticized Hammond for “standing on the shoulders of geniuses and taking the next step” but that is exactly what civilization is.
But we’ve become so divided that it’s no longer just “collected human knowledge” versus “crazy kooks.” There’s other cultures, other civilizations, and yes other political views, and you can’t just simply say “Oh, they’re all brainwashed, my way is the right way.” That implies an incredible amount of arrogance, simply because you were born at the right time, to the right people, and had the right influences, that to you the picture of your world says “this is right.”
There are a few things that I know for sure. One is that I’m certainly not the only intellgent person in the world, not by a long shot. Another is that I can’t be right about everything. And a third is that the best way to learn is by listening to others, especially those who don’t think like me.
Hell, ten years ago I was stuck in a Baptist church that was a half a step away from ‘cult’ but I found this funny comic strip called Shortpacked and figured I’d hear what it had to say. I can relate to the journey that Willis made, because he was a principal figure in opening the blinds and showing me there was a different way to think about the world.
So that’s why I say that we’re just supposed to take this at face value. Because despite the similarities, this isn’t Israel and Palestine. And not just because that would completely change a fundamentalist Christian perspective. It’s simple and straightforward because Bulmeria is not up for debate. Few things in real life are either-or, or neatly folded up into a box, and when Willis lets Hank give voice to his concerns, it’s not intended for us to sit down and discuss, “OK, well, to what degree does a country have the ability to retaliate and at what point is it genocide and what constitutes a “terrorist” to begin with?” It’s so we can sit back and go, “fuck, not only is he neck-deep in pro-war media, but he’s COMPLETELY missing the irony on panel 2, this is worse than I tought.”
The protest is on the side of the good guys. The campus and corporations are the bad guys. They fund war for profit. The protesters get tear gassed. If there is any nuance here, it will not be if the protest is good or bad, but whether Hank is dangerous or not or can be trusted or not, and also whether or not we can forget about the cheating for five minutes and watch two girls make out.
I’ve done the boat-sailing-away thing with binoculars. And watched buildings get shorter while sailing away from them. I feel a weird little thrill when things I know about the universe line up with what I can see.
Love your account of the role of Willis’ work in your escape
Well you got some breadcrumbs – it’s an insurgency, so it’s some form of civil war between a faction recognized by the Us gov and a faction considered insurgents/terrorists that nonetheless are citizens, though unclear if it’s revolutionary or seperatist.
A good history of WWI at least has to cover the Balkan Wars and the Austro-Hungariab Empire (50 years worth). That’s not necessary here.
Starship Troopers wasn’t exactly a treatise about why Earth is fighting those extraterrestrials. but we got enough around the edges to recall some real world fascism and / or authoritarianism.
To keep the strip from getting anchored in current events, Bulmeria is an abstraction of them. For deep analysis of the actual Middle East, there are books and news articles and probably even some topical web comics.
I kind of feel this too, but thats because current events are a LOT worse since then.
and its really not about Bulmeria its About college protests against Genocide and how peaceful ones were violently disrupted.
and My desire for moral clarity now in the comic , is also because the ongoing sudan genocide was been mostly erased. ( to me too )
and because the Moral outrage of a population people being starved
thejeff
This is actually another problem I have with the protest story here and to a lesser extent with the Gaza protests themselves. It’s very easy for the protests to shift to become about protesting – about free speech rights and about police violence against protestors. Which are important things and probably even more now than when this was written, but it’s still a shift away from the genocide the protests were originally about.
Wouldn’t pretending to be injured get a bird eaten more quickly? Predators love easy meals.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
That’s the idea. A cat is near your nest full of chicks. You pretend to have a broken wing 50 feet away. The cat comes towards you, away from the nest, hoping for an easy meal. When it is 20 feet away, you stop faking and fly away. You have gotten the cat away from your nest and chicks.
It’s a reasonable take for the information that someone with the information the average american in a relatively conservative sphere had at the start of all this. The question is how he’ll react to learning the truth of the situation, you know?
To “learning the truth” or to “hearing the obviously correct and authoritative conservative echo chamber challenged”?
thejeff
Hearing the “propaganda of the insurgents” of course.
And we should also remember that we all have similar blind spots and prejudices. In this fictional context, we don’t actually have enough information to make an informed judgement on the Bulmerian conflict. We can only respond to context clues that point to where Willis wants our sympathies to lie. Or to parallels between the protests and the Gaza protests. More sympathetic characters support the protests, while characters we dislike or at least distrust take the other side. That’s a common way to decide such things, but not really a good one.
She’s not mad at Joyce or Dorothy in the slightest, she’s mad at *herself* for being “not good enough.” I’m not at all surprised how happy she is to help.
I’m glad Hank understands all this relationship stuff is less important than what is going on in a wholly fictional nation that has no relationship to ANY real life conflict past or present (even if he’s on the wrong side). It would be so silly if the girls were more worried about their relationship than that…or Jocelyn.
406 thoughts on “Hand-wringing”
NGPZ
Becky may be heartbroken but gays gotta help gays right?
also
Hank
…
NOPE.
C.T Phipps
Like I said, I want to know who is exactly fighting who in Bulmeria.
Jon
I feel like that’s something the comic is never going to delve that deep into.
Which, positives and negatives. It makes the whole protest arc feel a bit shallow for me but at the same time, it’s not like I really WANT the whole comic to refocus on geopolitical stuff.
Nicepainter
Yeah, not everything can recontextualize current events like Superman did, and I wouldn’t want the comic to grind to a halt to explain it’s version of those events unless they’re really important to the plot since I read comics to escape the real world for a little bit
Psychie
Technically Superman didn’t recontextualize any current events, the script was finalized before the whole kefluffle in Isreal/Palestine kicked off, hence why literally the only similarities were that there was a genocide going on in the middle east, it was sheer coincidence that a genocide in the middle east occurred. Coincidences like that DO happen. The fact that there were parallels to draw at all was just serendipity (or ill-fortune if you consider the Snyder fanatics used it as an excuse to call the movie “woke” and crap on it more than they were already going to).
TTT
Andor s2 was also written and filmed beforehand.
Ymbrael
Both of these things were written decades, nearly a century, after the formation of the occupation and displacement; a project explicitly described as colonial in nature by it’s head architects. This isn’t a “centuries of nebulous conflict/oppression” argument, this is an objective description of a political project that is moderately well documented, but most people are horribly informed about because of it’s proximity to the dominant cultural hegemony and most powerful propaganda engine (Pax Americana, and even when the USSR was around to challenge Pax Americana, that Cultural Hegemony also often supported the colonial project for it’s own reasons).
Psychie
And nobody in the US was kicking up a significant fuss until just recently. The Superman movie could have been made a decade ago and be shot for shot identical and nobody would be saying it was about that conflict, instead they’d be drawing parallels with whatever genocide was going on a decade ago that was making waves in the media at the time. I have no recollection of what it might have been, but I’m sure there was one, because there almost always is one.
Sebastian Temples
The kefluffle as you put it didn’t come from nowhere. It was seventy-five years of occupation and genocide in the making. Opperation Cast Thy Bread (One of the earliest war crimes committed by Zionists against the Palestinian people) was enacted six months into the Palestine War (the conflict which established the colonial state of Israel.)
The parallels between the script and the actively ongoing genocide aren’t less cutting because the script was written during a lull in the active killing.
And, even if the script and cast were already locked in before October 7 2023, there was room to bring the parallels into starker contrasts: Wardrobe, Acting, and Directing all would have been on-going through the first year of the current genocide in gaza, and Editing through the second.
To dismiss as coincidence what was clearly intentional feels rather disrespectful to skill of everyone involved.
TTT
The oppression and genocides Jews suffered in Ottoman and British Palestine and neighboring areas goes back far longer than 75 years, longer than Israel or anything that looks like modern Zionism. Where one chooses to mark the beginning of the history that “counts” is very much a political decision.
We should all be leery of a fandom-ized interpretation of real world tragedies, especially when that fandom comes with headcanons like “this creator must see things my way, and if they say they don’t, it’s just an act.”
zee
Jews were not uniquely oppressed in the Ottoman empire. They fled *to* the Ottoman empire to escape persecution from Europe. They had to pay a non Muslim tax, same as the Christians, but otherwise Jewish culture thrived under the Ottomans. I’m not gonna say it was a walk in the park but point those genocidal accusations at Europe, Spain was expelling their Jews and Portugal was forcing conversion
thejeff
I do love the focus on discrimination against Jews in the Muslim world to paint Jews as victims of ages of Muslim oppression and thus unable to live in peace and justified in claiming the land of Israel for there, while simultaneously ignoring even longer oppression from Christians which should prove that Jews can never reconcile with them either.
Jews have definitely been fucked over by everyone at various times since antiquity. No denying it. Overall, it looks to me like the balance would have Jews living in Christian lands worse off than in Muslim countries – though there are obviously exceptions in both directions at various places and times.
The modern situation has been relatively brief, driven by sympathy after the Holocaust on the Christian side and the Zionist movement first trying to establish itself and then eventually founding the state of Israel in the Levant on the Muslim side.
Odo
I generally see two lines of complaints over this.
The first is that the use of a Palestine parallel was handled insensitively with regards to the real human suffering in the world. This complaint generally focuses on how the protests were used as a backdrop for a romance arc, or how Willis hasn’t seemed very engaged with the subject before now.
The second is complaining that it “lacks nuance”, or otherwise doesn’t portray it as a “both sides” issue.
I have respect for certain criticisms in the first category, but the latter just seems like it comes from people who oppose criticising Israel. They complain because the comic paints their side as bad.
Psychie
Except we also have direct word from the director that it wasn’t inspired by Israel, and frankly I didn’t see anything that painted it as Israel specific. There was a genocide, that genocide took place in the middle east. That is where the similarities both start and end. There have been plenty of other genocides in the middle east over the years. And frankly while there have been previous periods of violence in the Israel/Gaza area that got some amount of publicity, I don’t recall anyone here in the US caring quite as vocally about it until now, so it seems weird to claim that any of that history would be relevant to the idea that the creators of the Superman movie cared enough to make intentional references to it.
They made a generic genocide between two fictional countries, and it happened to bear a passing resemblance to the genocide that kicked off while it was in production. The creators deny there was inspiration there, and frankly there are only so many ways to depict a genocide that it’d bear a passing resemblance to any other genocide that might have occurred in the middle east at that time instead, it’s not like that’s the only major conflict between two ethnic groups going on over there.
It wasn’t blatant, because it wasn’t a reference. I keep seeing people call it a blatant reference but I’ve yet to see anybody actually explain WHAT they think makes it so obviously about Israel/Palestine beyond the fact that it’s a genocide taking place in the middle east. What are the parallels that you are seeing that I’m not? What are the direct references? What makes Boravia Israel and not any other middle eastern country? What makes Jarhanpur Palestine and not any other middle eastern country? Why is it not relevant that in the movie it was one country invading another and not a civil war like the conflict you all keep claiming this is supposed to be representing?
The fact of the matter is that we get extremely little information about the nature of the conflict in the movie, or the cultures of the two countries. Heck the only character from either country that even gets a line is the president of Boravia and his lines give us nothing to go off of to conclude anything about his country, it’s culture, or it’s religion (if that’s even relevant). Because it ultimately doesn’t matter to the story. All that mattered to the story was that there was a genocide and Superman opposed it because genocide is bad. You can draw parallels from that to literally every genocide ever in all of human history, because they are all bad and Superman would be just as opposed to them.
Delivery McGee
There’s pretty much always one genocide or another happening in the middle east. Israel/Palestine, Saddam/Kurds, Turks/Armenians … it happens so often it’s a handy plot for a protest story arc even if it’s not happening at the time of writing.
Bajja
Wut
BorkBorkBork
We’re not supposed to think about it too deeply at all. The comic makes it clear that the protesters are right, and the naysayers are wrong, and that’s pretty much that.
That’s not a criticism on the comic, but just a reality of life. For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it. And to those who really don’t care, why, they’ll listen to whoever’s opinion they trust most and take it up as their own, because they didn’t have a horse in this race to begin with.
We all think we’re unbiased, but very, VERY few issues in the average person’s life are approached with a blank slate and no preexisting bias, with all perspectives equally analyzed and weighed. And that’s not a slight on anyone – I mean, hell, I trust that scientists are right about the earth being round, even though I’m not an astrophysicist and couldn’t begin to do all of the necessary calculations to prove it. I consider Flat Earthers fools even though I’m trusting others for it.
We all have only so many spoons. You can’t realistically do all the legwork yourself, not if you want to live life having opinions on the vast majority of things.
I mean, come on. How many times have you seen an argument online go something like, “I don’t care what else you say, your side does _____ and that’s inexcusable.” When what that means, is that this person found the point at which they don’t need to keep thinking about the issue. For Hank, that’s “Terrorism.” For Dorothy, that’s “Genocide.” And Dorothy would argue to Hank that it’s not actually terrorism and Hank would argue that it’s not actually genocide, and both would walk away feeling more vindicated and righteous for facing the radical.
Of the entire named cast who was at the protest, it’s likely that Jocelyne is one of the few who examined the situation fully from both angles, having been raised in her household and then deciding for herself later something different.
Skewbrow
This. Also, the world would be better off without polarized news coverage, or, worse, news coverage only from your social media bubble. The bad news is that… that’s the reality for uncomfortably many normally well meaning folks.
eh, whatever
Just go on a reasonably high mountain and look.
deliverything
Or watch ships coming over the horizon; notice how you see the top first, while your view of the bottom’s still obstructed by the water? That’s a consequence of the curvature of the water, itself a consequence of the gravity of the curved planet.
Well, either that or it’s a ghost ship rising from the depths, but repeated observations should debunk this hypothesis.
Perhaps more convenient, but not available in all places: in some locations, you don’t even need the ship — there are places where tall buildings are visible over the horizon but their lower floors are hidden behind the Earth’s curvature.
There are a few more over here:
https://crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round
deliverything
Just to add: Flat Earther’s foolishness isn’t in disagreeing with the scientific consensus, it’s in vehemently making claims without testing them, while outright rejecting counterarguments without due consideration.
By contrast, someone who hasn’t yet considered the issue might implicitly assume the world to be flat but doesn’t have the rigid beliefs of an actual Flat Earther.
Wizard
Some did test the theory. The problem is that their tests were deeply flawed and didn’t actually prove what they claimed. The story is similar for many conspiracy theories. Supporters put forth “evidence” that’s either false or fails to prove they claim it does.
Vulcanodon
Sorry, I just get all excited about some things and I just love Carl Sagan’s wonderful explanation of how ancient people knew the Earth was round. It’s a very short video. Enjoy!
Kerry Ann
> For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it.
See, this is why I find human beings so frustrating – at least the neurotypical ones. I don’t know if this is an autistic spectrum thing or just *me* thing, but I’m absolutely *not* wired that way.
There is a model in my head of reality.
But I know that is *not* reality.
What you are describing is people trying to search for evidence to support that their model of reality is the correct reality.
I don’t. I seek to improve my model of reality. If I find evidence that contradicts that model, I adjust the model to account for that evidence, if the model cannot account for that evidence, then I know the model is based on faulty principles.
This is a conscious choice. It’s something I have *chosen* to do.
But it baffles me that most people do not make that choice.
Orden
It’s a pretty simple concept, isn’t it?
The assumption that you do not, in fact, know everything that is, and therefore, your view of reality is imperfect, and always will be.
I mean, that’s true for literally everyone that has ever lived, so it’s hardly unique. And yet, there are so few people that manage to figure it out.
However, to really live by that, two things are required. The ability to admit being wrong, and the willingness to strive to improve. The first is foolishly seen as an admission of weakness, and the later is a tremendous amount of difficult, frustrating, and thankless work.
Most people just won’t bother.
Good thing I’m stubborn.
BorkBorkBork
OMG, I’m pretty sure this is the first time someone has mistaken me for neurotypical.
I’m not sure if it’s an autistic spectrum thing or not, but I 100% hear you, except for one thing. For the things that I don’t care about, I *really* don’t care about. Like, I could talk for ages about the narrative role that Booster plays in this story and how in some ways they ARE a reboot of Mike’s role, but sit me in a room with a real-life Booster and suddenly I really need to check DekuDeals to see if there’s any good sales going on.
Anyways. When I say “for most of us” I mean for most of us humans. And I’ve gotten that view after years upon years of banging my head against the wall wondering why on earth we all act so tribalistic and afraid of listening to one another. Why we come up with pejoratives to describe people used to think like us but changed their mind.
And what I got, mostly, is that most people are afraid of change and the unknown. They have their view of reality and the idea of shaking it up or tearing some or all of it down – and especially of admitting you were wrong on something – is like trying to redesign your boat while you’re sailing it. You’re going to have a breakdown.
Also that people really, REALLY like being right. And because they often feel their own inadequacies very strongly they get some sort of joy from tearing down others so they can feel more right. There are some people who just don’t feel complete unless there’s a battle to be won and an enemy to vanquish.
John Campbell
There are lots of ways to prove that the Earth is round. Some of them you can do at home. Given a stick, a couple of widely separated points, and some basic geometry, you can even make a pretty good estimate of the size.
BorkBorkBork
I picked “flat earth” because it’s something that I feel like we all can 100% get behind, without people accusing me that I’m trying to secretly advocate that the world is a flat disc perched atop the shoulders of four elephants standing on top of Great A’Tuin the Turtle.
… though surprisingly it’s working out beautifully, because so far most people have latched onto that, and mostly either shared sites that talk about it, or other people who talk about it, or better yet, just saying that the other side is flawed.
Show of hands. How many people here have stood looking out over the horizon with a spyglass, specifically to see the bottom of the sailboat disappear on the horizon? It’s not something you’d be able to really see well with your naked eye. Of those who had, how many of you had then run controlled experiements so that you know that what you’re seeing you can attribute to the curvature of the earth, *quickly Googles* a trick of the light, with atmospheric refracting?
How many of you have calculated the geometry that John Campbell mentions yourself? How many of you have coordinated with someone in Alexandria while you stood in Aswan to see the length of your obelisk’s shadow? How many have done any information gathering at all, earnestly, for the other side?
I haven’t. I trust that those before me have. I trust that when Carl Sagan explains that Eratosthenes puzzled over the differences in shadow, that he measured properly. I trust that the reason why Polaris stays at the same point in the sky is because it lines up the neatest with the rotation of a round Earth, and I trust that up in space there’s not one astronaut gaping at a giant disc perched on a turtle while another astronaut holds a gun to his back, saying “Always has been.”
The flat earthers have. How do I know? Because they get it wrong! Human knowledge is based off of all of us collectively adding our knowledge together, proving and disproving each other. Jeff Goldblum’s character in Jurassic Park criticized Hammond for “standing on the shoulders of geniuses and taking the next step” but that is exactly what civilization is.
But we’ve become so divided that it’s no longer just “collected human knowledge” versus “crazy kooks.” There’s other cultures, other civilizations, and yes other political views, and you can’t just simply say “Oh, they’re all brainwashed, my way is the right way.” That implies an incredible amount of arrogance, simply because you were born at the right time, to the right people, and had the right influences, that to you the picture of your world says “this is right.”
There are a few things that I know for sure. One is that I’m certainly not the only intellgent person in the world, not by a long shot. Another is that I can’t be right about everything. And a third is that the best way to learn is by listening to others, especially those who don’t think like me.
Hell, ten years ago I was stuck in a Baptist church that was a half a step away from ‘cult’ but I found this funny comic strip called Shortpacked and figured I’d hear what it had to say. I can relate to the journey that Willis made, because he was a principal figure in opening the blinds and showing me there was a different way to think about the world.
So that’s why I say that we’re just supposed to take this at face value. Because despite the similarities, this isn’t Israel and Palestine. And not just because that would completely change a fundamentalist Christian perspective. It’s simple and straightforward because Bulmeria is not up for debate. Few things in real life are either-or, or neatly folded up into a box, and when Willis lets Hank give voice to his concerns, it’s not intended for us to sit down and discuss, “OK, well, to what degree does a country have the ability to retaliate and at what point is it genocide and what constitutes a “terrorist” to begin with?” It’s so we can sit back and go, “fuck, not only is he neck-deep in pro-war media, but he’s COMPLETELY missing the irony on panel 2, this is worse than I tought.”
The protest is on the side of the good guys. The campus and corporations are the bad guys. They fund war for profit. The protesters get tear gassed. If there is any nuance here, it will not be if the protest is good or bad, but whether Hank is dangerous or not or can be trusted or not, and also whether or not we can forget about the cheating for five minutes and watch two girls make out.
Vulcanodon
I’ve done the boat-sailing-away thing with binoculars. And watched buildings get shorter while sailing away from them. I feel a weird little thrill when things I know about the universe line up with what I can see.
Love your account of the role of Willis’ work in your escape
KM
Well you got some breadcrumbs – it’s an insurgency, so it’s some form of civil war between a faction recognized by the Us gov and a faction considered insurgents/terrorists that nonetheless are citizens, though unclear if it’s revolutionary or seperatist.
C.T Phipps
Ooo, good point.
MK15
While it’s (imo) intentionally vague in order to accommodate the shifting timeline, the current reference point feels very much Israel-Gaza.
Psychie
Especially since the protest is a clear and direct reference to a real pro-palestine protest that actually occurred on the IU campus.
ValdVin
Yep.
A good history of WWI at least has to cover the Balkan Wars and the Austro-Hungariab Empire (50 years worth). That’s not necessary here.
Starship Troopers wasn’t exactly a treatise about why Earth is fighting those extraterrestrials. but we got enough around the edges to recall some real world fascism and / or authoritarianism.
Vulcanodon
To keep the strip from getting anchored in current events, Bulmeria is an abstraction of them. For deep analysis of the actual Middle East, there are books and news articles and probably even some topical web comics.
Adam Black
I kind of feel this too, but thats because current events are a LOT worse since then.
and its really not about Bulmeria its About college protests against Genocide and how peaceful ones were violently disrupted.
and My desire for moral clarity now in the comic , is also because the ongoing sudan genocide was been mostly erased. ( to me too )
and because the Moral outrage of a population people being starved
thejeff
This is actually another problem I have with the protest story here and to a lesser extent with the Gaza protests themselves. It’s very easy for the protests to shift to become about protesting – about free speech rights and about police violence against protestors. Which are important things and probably even more now than when this was written, but it’s still a shift away from the genocide the protests were originally about.
Dara
MUST PROTECT FLEDGLING LESBIBIRBS
it’s the law of nature
(yes yes bibirbs whatever they’re in lesbians with each other and that’s what matters xD )
Slartibeast Button, BIA
So this is like flapping around pretending to have a broken wing?
Dara
I actually saw that happen this summer when I got too close to a nest with eggs in, it was “oh oh hon no I’m not after your babies” <3
But yeah, basically that xD
Slartibeast Button, BIA
I’ve had killdeer do it to me while I was riding my bike near the cute babies. Not broken wing faking, but swooping real near me flashing their tails.
Taffy
Wouldn’t pretending to be injured get a bird eaten more quickly? Predators love easy meals.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
That’s the idea. A cat is near your nest full of chicks. You pretend to have a broken wing 50 feet away. The cat comes towards you, away from the nest, hoping for an easy meal. When it is 20 feet away, you stop faking and fly away. You have gotten the cat away from your nest and chicks.
EmperorGreed
It’s a reasonable take for the information that someone with the information the average american in a relatively conservative sphere had at the start of all this. The question is how he’ll react to learning the truth of the situation, you know?
butting
To “learning the truth” or to “hearing the obviously correct and authoritative conservative echo chamber challenged”?
thejeff
Hearing the “propaganda of the insurgents” of course.
And we should also remember that we all have similar blind spots and prejudices. In this fictional context, we don’t actually have enough information to make an informed judgement on the Bulmerian conflict. We can only respond to context clues that point to where Willis wants our sympathies to lie. Or to parallels between the protests and the Gaza protests. More sympathetic characters support the protests, while characters we dislike or at least distrust take the other side. That’s a common way to decide such things, but not really a good one.
Dawn
She’s not mad at Joyce or Dorothy in the slightest, she’s mad at *herself* for being “not good enough.” I’m not at all surprised how happy she is to help.
anon
Be great timing for them to run into carla/charlie and their input on it
Whirlakitty
A friend who you are mad at suddenly needing help tends to cool off upset and anger pretty fast.
Syl
becky throwing herself on the parent grenade for her lost love
Doctor_Who
This is still going to be 1000% more pleasant than any interaction with her actual father.
Thag Simmons
I mean he’s not going to be doing much interacting these days.
Sharizard
‘So dad… still dead huh?’
And yes, i am imagining his skeleton as two giant toe bones with a mustache.
Michelle J Caboose
You gotta admit, him being dead will make even one or two interactions pretty unpleasant.
furubatsu
What’s a college campus without someone messing with a ouija board?
Cholma
Bad timing, Sierra, BAD TIMING!
HMRC4EVR
It’ll be worse if those 3 made it to the cafeteria
Dean
The rest of the doem is waiting with balloons and a cake.
Tawnee
Pintsize has loaned them his leftover “Happy Arbor Day!” banner from way back when.
Skewbrow
ROTFL!
anon
at least it wasn’twalky i’m sure he would’ve said something worse
C.T Phipps
I’m glad Hank understands all this relationship stuff is less important than what is going on in a wholly fictional nation that has no relationship to ANY real life conflict past or present (even if he’s on the wrong side). It would be so silly if the girls were more worried about their relationship than that…or Jocelyn.
Silphael
I mean, Dorothy is clearly still on point.
Amara
Yeeesh, I fully retract any defense I had been considering for Hank. What the fuck dude.
C.T Phipps
I mean, I’m hoping it’s a combination of Gaza/Syria/Ukraine and Latveria with a dictator that Monkey Master can drop from a skyscraper.
Doctor_Who
I’m just picturing that Boravia / Jarhanpur conflict from this year’s Superman.
Nathan Fillion about to appear and fuck shit up. Not as a superhero, that’s the other Willisverse, just regular Nathan Fillion.
Rowen Morland
“Nathan Fillion about to appear and fuck shit up. Not as a superhero, that’s the other Willisverse, just regular Nathan Fillion.”
That’s xKcd.
deliverything
No, use his space name!
Freezer
If he did just BAMF into IU, would more people scream “MAL”, “NOLAN” or “GUY” at him!
eskimolos
A couple of the professors – “CASTLE”
Freezer
And almost assuredly a smattering of “CAPTAIN HAMMER!”
morleuca
And only one quiet “Johnny!” from the back
jonathan young
I loved the giant ‘flipping the bird’ ring hands knocking the tanks over that was amazing and SO on-brand for Guy Gardner
EpochFlame
I think he’s trying to be better but isn’t aware of some of his shortcomings.