Yes but he’s still letting her think they’re “weed drugs” not multivitamins.
Rocket Relm
This gets into a whole philosophical discussion regarding obligation to make sure people are informed about the world around them, and moreover, how “incorrect” they can be before you’re obligated to say “no no, it means this”.
Really if I went around correcting people on stuff I knew was wrong but that they had a presumption on, I’m not sure I’d get to do anything else.
SuperZero
She didn’t presume anything. He lied to her about them in the first place.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Eehhnnn, she asked for, “an edible.” He gave her something edible. Her own sister witnessed the exchange and didn’t interfere. Liz is bein’ stupid and although I don’t believe in karma, but my sympathy for her evaporated when she showed us who she really is as a person.
“When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time.”
— Maya Angelou
Felix
There is no obligation, people are free to be and remain ignorant. Rather than an obligation though, you might feel the need to inform them.
It’s one thing if it’s a fairly harmless misunderstanding but a whole other thing if it can lead to actual harm.
nothri
Just throwing this out there- speaking as a guy who has attention deficit I am very thankful when people who realize I’ve interpreted data incorrectly let me know so I don’t do something stupid or end up looking like an asshole. I feel like if it isn’t subjective and is very clearly just someone misunderstanding a fact (e.g.- a multivitamin is a multivitamin and not weed) it is actually a decent and kind act to gently let them know they’ve made a mistake and not leave them to get lost in the wilderness with a broken compass, if you will pardon the metaphor.
Switchchris23
If he did get her high before they did anything sexual, she could turn it against him if she ended up regretting anything, or if she gets exposed. We already know she isnt a good person, don’t want her claiming he got her high to take advantage of her.
Huehuetotl
I’m sorry what? “not a good person”? Being annoying doesn’t mean someone would lie about being assaulted.
quixoticmaunster
Wow you’re really just going to perpetuate this idea that being falsely accused of sexual assault is a common thing?
Or the idea that Liz is “a bad person” for not being the kind of person you want her to be? The worst thing she has done since arriving on the scene is handling her exit from religion in a way the comment section wishes she hadn’t. She didn’t hurt anyone, she didn’t pressure anyone, she came to visit her sister and her new friend and is getting to explore herself a little.
I’m not sure what fluffy imaginary world most people in these comments sections grew up in, but being kinda dumb at 19 is NORMAL not “a bad person” and she’s fully entitled to explore her sexuality, her interest in drugs, as well as her feelings about religion without suddenly being the devil.
Also, can’t stress this enough, JOE is the one lying to her about drugs he hasn’t given her and using her to scratch an itch rather than being open about why he’s interested.
temperaryobsessor
While she hasn’t done much explicitly wrong she’s sort of lying to her parents to keep their impression of her as a good girl.
Spencer
What do you think would motivate someone to lie to their dad and stepmom about something that other people relentlessly mock them for, to the point where they feel the need to put on an extreme performance they can see while at college?
Paradox
Exactly, while I highly doubt the comic will go in that direction, she clearly still cares about her parent’s opinion of her, if they found out that their “goof Christian daughter” had sex with some rando, its not too far fetched for an otherwise good person to lie to save face
Like the person above you said, being dumb at 19 is normal, I would say that lying about being taken advantage of sexually, not out of malice but out of a desire to make authority figures direct their wrath away from YOU, falls under that purview
Amias
Meet literally any queer adult and you’ll meet someone who has had to lie to their parents for safety and/or financial security. My parents needed to think I was a “good straight Christian girl” until I moved away and wasn’t dependent on them. If I had told them otherwise, I would have been put in a dangerous position.
Not only is lying to your parents an extremely common thing to do at age 19, it is sometimes both necessary and justified.
Prior Semblance
I think “literally any” is pushing it a bit far.
Spencer
There have been so many wack comments during this entire interaction.
Thag Simmons
Liz can be selfish and impulsive, and I guess that makes her a bad person. Seems like a reasonable and fair standard
Chris Phoenix
Reading this right after the Wilde Life comment section – where half the women Oscar meets are literal monsters who try to kill him – Liz’s smile and statement in panel 2, and Joe’s reaction in panel 3, seem like ominous foreshadowing.
Chris Phoenix
Argh, meant to put that at top-level.
Needfuldoer
Never lie to someone about the food you’re giving them.
CODDE117
This is like the opposite of drugging someone. This is only a problem if they are being bought and sold.
If my child asked for alcohol and I gave them sparkling grape juice, telling them that it’ll get you really drunk, I have really done no harm.
CODDE117
Although, now that I think about it, it might be important to understand proper dosage of both edibles and alcohol.
I know someone who, at a young and foolish age in the 1960’s, was very strung out on drugs and looking for more. He was approached by a stranger on the street who said, “Here, take this, you’ll like it.” My friend said, “What is it?” and the stranger said, “Nicotinic acid.” My friend thought “Nicotine! Acid!” and swallowed it.
Nicotinic acid is vitamin B3, which would have either no effect or a mild positive effect. My friend thinks that stranger may have saved his life.
Chris Phoenix
…And on further reading, B3 is indeed bad in too high doses, extra-bad for some people, even though it’s water-soluble I shouldn’t have said it would definitely be harmless-or-good. Don’t take medical advice from the internet.
I heartily disagree. Em dashes should always be set off by spaces. It just looks better.
King Daniel
That’s en dashes, I believe.
Jamie
I mean, I would certainly prefer a multivitamin to an edible, but my preferences aren’t the styleguide.
Just like I’d still prefer two spaces after a full stop. But have bowed to the incarnate reality that is whitespace-trimming browser rendering engines. All hail Lynx!
Idk what else is going on but (as a copyeditor) hear, hear on the em dashes! No spaces!! Misunderstood punctuation for sure. Though like King Daniel said, an en dash might sometimes have spaces around it, I guess, in place of a proper em dash (for newspaper/AP style, I think).
I’m really upset that he wasn’t paying attention on consent day in that gender class. I mean I’m sure he makes sure girls consent and doesn’t do drunk girls but he could just use a few words here to get the point across to her so she doesn’t take advantage of people who can’t consent in the future.
Joe is responsible for making sure that Liz doesn’t take advantage of people who can’t consent in the future? I can’t help feeling that I may have lost the thread of the conversation here somewhere.
She’s suggested twice that they both need to be taking drugs in order to have sex. Yesterday she suggested he get high which means HE wouldn’t be able to consent (he could have said something about wanting to enjoy it) and today she suggested that she get high which means SHE wouldn’t be able to consent. At either point he could have done a sexier positive version of “Dude, that’s not cool.” It is ALL of our responsibility to make sure that people don’t get into situations where sex happens without consent. Consent is important and especially teenagers need to know that they can’t get people drunk or stoned in order to have sex with them. So yeah, if Joe can prevent a rape with a cute comment he should. She definitely seems to be willing to be educated on how to be hip and secular and consent is sexy.
thejeff
You have to get pretty high to not be able to legally consent. If these were real edibles and they both had another then had sex, would they be raping each other? It makes no sense.
It’s certainly not good to get people drunk/high in order to persuade them to have sex, but the legal bar is much higher than you’re suggesting.
BBCC
Unless you’re getting someone so drunk or high they don’t know what sex is, you’re unlikely to hit the legal bar for rape. That doesn’t mean getting someone drunk or high to change ‘no’ into ‘yes’ isn’t rape. It means you’re probably not getting charged.
Nicoleandmaggie
What BBCC said! Now I’m wishing for more strips of Lesley’s class because it sounds like a lot of people could learn from a very special storyline. It reminds me of all the idiot boys arguing with the resident counselor the first week of college. You mean we have to get affirmative consent EVERY time?!?! Won’t that ruin the mood? If we’re both drunk are we taking each other?? That’s why you don’t both get drunk or high and have sex and you assist your friends to not do that either. Good grief.
Let me find the tea video.
BBCC
I remember I was once in a high school philosophy class where our substitute asked us for an example of rape that many don’t realize as rape. I responded “Picking up a drunk girl” and when she said I was right, I have NEVER heard so many high school boys jump to go “WOAH WOAH WOAH WHAT”.
thejeff
That hinges on what “drunk” is understood to mean. How drunk do you have to be to lose your ability to consent? One beer? A little tipsy? If both people were drinking, who raped who? There are reasons the laws around this tend to be pretty strict about defining how incapacitated you have have to be to lose the ability to consent.
Or to bring it back to the comic: was most of Ruth and Jennifer’s sex rape, since Jennifer at least was at least somewhat drunk most of the first season?
BBCC
I never said the law doesn’t have reasons to define consent the way it does, but it DOES leave out a lot of rapes. Folks who work in the social issues side instead of the legal issues side know that. Hell, I know YOU know that since a while ago you were the one who said ‘the legal standard for consent leaves a lot out’ or something along those lines. Again, using alcohol or drugs to get around a ‘no’ without hitting the point of incoherence is still rape, you’re just unlikely to get charged for it.
If both people were drinking, from what I can tell, the consensus seems to be there isn’t the criminal intent necessary for rape, but I’m not an expert in working with rape victims on either the legal or social issues side.
And going “But what does drunk meaaaaan” in this context seems disingenuous. You know full well ‘one beer’ or ‘a little tipsy’ is not what I said and you know full well that that’s not what most people mean when they say drunk. That’s not a good basis for making legal definitions, no, but we weren’t in a law class when I said it.
Ruth was drunk at least as often as Jennifer was, and Jennifer spoke often about how much she loved getting drunk and getting railed, at least once in front of Ruth. We know, and Ruth knew, she was okay with drunk sex ahead of time. But since you want to bring up examples from the comic – how about when Sal was falling down drunk and Jason brought her home? There were a bunch of people in the comments cheering for them to go to town, even though Sal couldn’t even freaking WALK and definitely had her inhibitions affected by the amount she drank. BUT she was coherent and so legally Jason probably wouldn’t be charged for it, even though, yeah, it would’ve been rape (which is why Willis commented it wasn’t happening).
misanthropope
now hold on. the consent was clear and enthusiastic. the drugs are part of the foreplay in this situation. does that somehow neutralize the consent, in your view?
howsabout a little friendly bondage. agree upon a clear plan of action, put your partner in the ropes and gag. so… whatever happens next is rape, you know, because dogma? they can’t sign the triplicate during the actual sex acts and that’s what matters ethically, right?
BBCC
Can’t speak for Nicoleandmaggie but my view is if you’re sober (as Liz believes she is here – she at least thinks she’s sobering up) and say ‘I wanna get high and get fucked’ ahead of time to your prospective partner and they say ‘Yeah, I’m down with that’, I’d still say you got consent. You CAN agree to things ahead of time.
The lie is telling her she shouldn’t have more drugs. Also, the “drugs” did not impair her mental state or judgement. He’s doing somewhat questionable things, but that’s not one of them.
Discussion (252) - “Comfortable”
Ana Chronistic
look that’s just the RECOMMENDATION, like with the Best By date!
Ana Chronistic
DOES EYES
JOES EYES
Tim
Dat triangle smile.
Rose by Any Other Name
Dat lower lip bite.
I know that move. I have used it of old.
Sombrero
Means Liz is Mike’s new secret identity.
Ana Chronistic
Now I have to wonder just how naïve Liz is
If she finds out it’s men’s vitamins, is she gonna freak out and be like, “WILL THAT MAKE ME A MAN?!”
Paul Grant
Only if she’s in Rocky Horror 😛 “In just 7 days”
Abel Undercity
Dig it, if you can.
Roborat
And 7 nights.
Decidedly Orthogonal
It’s ok, she doesn’t care about B-6, she’s looking for the D (she thinks).
Thag Simmons
And good decisions were made by all.
I can’t wait for this to not backfire at all.
Nono
Danny made the wise decision to get out of dodge.
alongcameaspider
I mean he wasn’t given much of a choice
Keulen
Sarah definitely won’t be angry when she finds out.
Keith Curtis
Or Joyce.
StClair
worse, Joyce will be ~disappointed~.
Exarch
That last panel makes me cringe – Joe should not be lying to her about anything if he plans to go through with this
woobie
He is informing her of the max daily dose straight from the label.
Z
Yes but he’s still letting her think they’re “weed drugs” not multivitamins.
Rocket Relm
This gets into a whole philosophical discussion regarding obligation to make sure people are informed about the world around them, and moreover, how “incorrect” they can be before you’re obligated to say “no no, it means this”.
Really if I went around correcting people on stuff I knew was wrong but that they had a presumption on, I’m not sure I’d get to do anything else.
SuperZero
She didn’t presume anything. He lied to her about them in the first place.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Eehhnnn, she asked for, “an edible.” He gave her something edible. Her own sister witnessed the exchange and didn’t interfere. Liz is bein’ stupid and although I don’t believe in karma, but my sympathy for her evaporated when she showed us who she really is as a person.
“When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time.”
— Maya Angelou
Felix
There is no obligation, people are free to be and remain ignorant. Rather than an obligation though, you might feel the need to inform them.
It’s one thing if it’s a fairly harmless misunderstanding but a whole other thing if it can lead to actual harm.
nothri
Just throwing this out there- speaking as a guy who has attention deficit I am very thankful when people who realize I’ve interpreted data incorrectly let me know so I don’t do something stupid or end up looking like an asshole. I feel like if it isn’t subjective and is very clearly just someone misunderstanding a fact (e.g.- a multivitamin is a multivitamin and not weed) it is actually a decent and kind act to gently let them know they’ve made a mistake and not leave them to get lost in the wilderness with a broken compass, if you will pardon the metaphor.
Switchchris23
If he did get her high before they did anything sexual, she could turn it against him if she ended up regretting anything, or if she gets exposed. We already know she isnt a good person, don’t want her claiming he got her high to take advantage of her.
Huehuetotl
I’m sorry what? “not a good person”? Being annoying doesn’t mean someone would lie about being assaulted.
quixoticmaunster
Wow you’re really just going to perpetuate this idea that being falsely accused of sexual assault is a common thing?
Or the idea that Liz is “a bad person” for not being the kind of person you want her to be? The worst thing she has done since arriving on the scene is handling her exit from religion in a way the comment section wishes she hadn’t. She didn’t hurt anyone, she didn’t pressure anyone, she came to visit her sister and her new friend and is getting to explore herself a little.
I’m not sure what fluffy imaginary world most people in these comments sections grew up in, but being kinda dumb at 19 is NORMAL not “a bad person” and she’s fully entitled to explore her sexuality, her interest in drugs, as well as her feelings about religion without suddenly being the devil.
Also, can’t stress this enough, JOE is the one lying to her about drugs he hasn’t given her and using her to scratch an itch rather than being open about why he’s interested.
temperaryobsessor
While she hasn’t done much explicitly wrong she’s sort of lying to her parents to keep their impression of her as a good girl.
Spencer
What do you think would motivate someone to lie to their dad and stepmom about something that other people relentlessly mock them for, to the point where they feel the need to put on an extreme performance they can see while at college?
Paradox
Exactly, while I highly doubt the comic will go in that direction, she clearly still cares about her parent’s opinion of her, if they found out that their “goof Christian daughter” had sex with some rando, its not too far fetched for an otherwise good person to lie to save face
Like the person above you said, being dumb at 19 is normal, I would say that lying about being taken advantage of sexually, not out of malice but out of a desire to make authority figures direct their wrath away from YOU, falls under that purview
Amias
Meet literally any queer adult and you’ll meet someone who has had to lie to their parents for safety and/or financial security. My parents needed to think I was a “good straight Christian girl” until I moved away and wasn’t dependent on them. If I had told them otherwise, I would have been put in a dangerous position.
Not only is lying to your parents an extremely common thing to do at age 19, it is sometimes both necessary and justified.
Prior Semblance
I think “literally any” is pushing it a bit far.
Spencer
There have been so many wack comments during this entire interaction.
Thag Simmons
Liz can be selfish and impulsive, and I guess that makes her a bad person. Seems like a reasonable and fair standard
Chris Phoenix
Reading this right after the Wilde Life comment section – where half the women Oscar meets are literal monsters who try to kill him – Liz’s smile and statement in panel 2, and Joe’s reaction in panel 3, seem like ominous foreshadowing.
Chris Phoenix
Argh, meant to put that at top-level.
Needfuldoer
Never lie to someone about the food you’re giving them.
CODDE117
This is like the opposite of drugging someone. This is only a problem if they are being bought and sold.
If my child asked for alcohol and I gave them sparkling grape juice, telling them that it’ll get you really drunk, I have really done no harm.
CODDE117
Although, now that I think about it, it might be important to understand proper dosage of both edibles and alcohol.
MrSmith
Technically not a lie
Chris Phoenix
I know someone who, at a young and foolish age in the 1960’s, was very strung out on drugs and looking for more. He was approached by a stranger on the street who said, “Here, take this, you’ll like it.” My friend said, “What is it?” and the stranger said, “Nicotinic acid.” My friend thought “Nicotine! Acid!” and swallowed it.
Nicotinic acid is vitamin B3, which would have either no effect or a mild positive effect. My friend thinks that stranger may have saved his life.
Chris Phoenix
…And on further reading, B3 is indeed bad in too high doses, extra-bad for some people, even though it’s water-soluble I shouldn’t have said it would definitely be harmless-or-good. Don’t take medical advice from the internet.
Ray Radlein
Taking medical advice from the internet: STILL probably safer than taking random pills from complete strangers on the street
SillyGoose
Low bar to clear, except maybe if the street in question runs between a hospital and a the staff’s favorite watering hole.
Exarch
The lie happened earlier in the day, and he’s choosing to play along with it, continuing the lie
Clif
Nowhere did he lie. She asked him for a edible. He gave her an edible.
Jamie
FYI, when you use an emdash, it should not have spaces around it if you’re not writing for the newspaper.
I felt like I should point that out lest I be accused of lying for not doing so.
BarerMender
I heartily disagree. Em dashes should always be set off by spaces. It just looks better.
King Daniel
That’s en dashes, I believe.
Jamie
I mean, I would certainly prefer a multivitamin to an edible, but my preferences aren’t the styleguide.
Just like I’d still prefer two spaces after a full stop. But have bowed to the incarnate reality that is whitespace-trimming browser rendering engines. All hail Lynx!
Ana Chronistic
Which is interesting bc I can see double-space after your sentences here
Clif
Multivitamins are edible.
Steelbright
Idk what else is going on but (as a copyeditor) hear, hear on the em dashes! No spaces!! Misunderstood punctuation for sure. Though like King Daniel said, an en dash might sometimes have spaces around it, I guess, in place of a proper em dash (for newspaper/AP style, I think).
Nicoleandmaggie
I’m really upset that he wasn’t paying attention on consent day in that gender class. I mean I’m sure he makes sure girls consent and doesn’t do drunk girls but he could just use a few words here to get the point across to her so she doesn’t take advantage of people who can’t consent in the future.
Clif
Joe is responsible for making sure that Liz doesn’t take advantage of people who can’t consent in the future? I can’t help feeling that I may have lost the thread of the conversation here somewhere.
nicoleandmaggie
She’s suggested twice that they both need to be taking drugs in order to have sex. Yesterday she suggested he get high which means HE wouldn’t be able to consent (he could have said something about wanting to enjoy it) and today she suggested that she get high which means SHE wouldn’t be able to consent. At either point he could have done a sexier positive version of “Dude, that’s not cool.” It is ALL of our responsibility to make sure that people don’t get into situations where sex happens without consent. Consent is important and especially teenagers need to know that they can’t get people drunk or stoned in order to have sex with them. So yeah, if Joe can prevent a rape with a cute comment he should. She definitely seems to be willing to be educated on how to be hip and secular and consent is sexy.
thejeff
You have to get pretty high to not be able to legally consent. If these were real edibles and they both had another then had sex, would they be raping each other? It makes no sense.
It’s certainly not good to get people drunk/high in order to persuade them to have sex, but the legal bar is much higher than you’re suggesting.
BBCC
Unless you’re getting someone so drunk or high they don’t know what sex is, you’re unlikely to hit the legal bar for rape. That doesn’t mean getting someone drunk or high to change ‘no’ into ‘yes’ isn’t rape. It means you’re probably not getting charged.
Nicoleandmaggie
What BBCC said! Now I’m wishing for more strips of Lesley’s class because it sounds like a lot of people could learn from a very special storyline. It reminds me of all the idiot boys arguing with the resident counselor the first week of college. You mean we have to get affirmative consent EVERY time?!?! Won’t that ruin the mood? If we’re both drunk are we taking each other?? That’s why you don’t both get drunk or high and have sex and you assist your friends to not do that either. Good grief.
Let me find the tea video.
BBCC
I remember I was once in a high school philosophy class where our substitute asked us for an example of rape that many don’t realize as rape. I responded “Picking up a drunk girl” and when she said I was right, I have NEVER heard so many high school boys jump to go “WOAH WOAH WOAH WHAT”.
thejeff
That hinges on what “drunk” is understood to mean. How drunk do you have to be to lose your ability to consent? One beer? A little tipsy? If both people were drinking, who raped who? There are reasons the laws around this tend to be pretty strict about defining how incapacitated you have have to be to lose the ability to consent.
Or to bring it back to the comic: was most of Ruth and Jennifer’s sex rape, since Jennifer at least was at least somewhat drunk most of the first season?
BBCC
I never said the law doesn’t have reasons to define consent the way it does, but it DOES leave out a lot of rapes. Folks who work in the social issues side instead of the legal issues side know that. Hell, I know YOU know that since a while ago you were the one who said ‘the legal standard for consent leaves a lot out’ or something along those lines. Again, using alcohol or drugs to get around a ‘no’ without hitting the point of incoherence is still rape, you’re just unlikely to get charged for it.
If both people were drinking, from what I can tell, the consensus seems to be there isn’t the criminal intent necessary for rape, but I’m not an expert in working with rape victims on either the legal or social issues side.
And going “But what does drunk meaaaaan” in this context seems disingenuous. You know full well ‘one beer’ or ‘a little tipsy’ is not what I said and you know full well that that’s not what most people mean when they say drunk. That’s not a good basis for making legal definitions, no, but we weren’t in a law class when I said it.
Ruth was drunk at least as often as Jennifer was, and Jennifer spoke often about how much she loved getting drunk and getting railed, at least once in front of Ruth. We know, and Ruth knew, she was okay with drunk sex ahead of time. But since you want to bring up examples from the comic – how about when Sal was falling down drunk and Jason brought her home? There were a bunch of people in the comments cheering for them to go to town, even though Sal couldn’t even freaking WALK and definitely had her inhibitions affected by the amount she drank. BUT she was coherent and so legally Jason probably wouldn’t be charged for it, even though, yeah, it would’ve been rape (which is why Willis commented it wasn’t happening).
misanthropope
now hold on. the consent was clear and enthusiastic. the drugs are part of the foreplay in this situation. does that somehow neutralize the consent, in your view?
howsabout a little friendly bondage. agree upon a clear plan of action, put your partner in the ropes and gag. so… whatever happens next is rape, you know, because dogma? they can’t sign the triplicate during the actual sex acts and that’s what matters ethically, right?
BBCC
Can’t speak for Nicoleandmaggie but my view is if you’re sober (as Liz believes she is here – she at least thinks she’s sobering up) and say ‘I wanna get high and get fucked’ ahead of time to your prospective partner and they say ‘Yeah, I’m down with that’, I’d still say you got consent. You CAN agree to things ahead of time.
thumb
The lie is telling her she shouldn’t have more drugs. Also, the “drugs” did not impair her mental state or judgement. He’s doing somewhat questionable things, but that’s not one of them.
Clif
He didn’t tell her she shouldn’t have more drugs, even if edible multivitamins are technically drugs. He told here what the recommended dosage was.
tim gueguen
Joe is so going to regret this.
Rose by Any Other Name
Joe will remember this.
Fay
Sarah will remember this.
And Joe’s kneecaps will remember this, once she’s through with him.
Agemegos
And Sarah will go to jail with a felony conviction, if so.
Needfuldoer
How far along do you think they’ll get before he hallucinates Joyce in Liz’s place?
The Wellerman