I dunno, remember the wipeboard bandit scheme? Literally nobody would have figured it out if not for her self-admission, and even then people doubted her.
Needfuldoer
Ambmazi-Girl figured it out.
HeySo
Yes, the mentally ill person who lives out a vivid fantasy life in the real world, managed to figure out the insanity that was Joyce.
..somehow I don’t think that provides any convincing evidence that anyone else could figure Joyce’s schemes out. 😛
DannyUniverse
Honestly don’t understand your dig at Amber/Amazi here. Yes, she has mental illness but that isn’t really relevant to her figuring out the ding ding dong bandit.
Also not sure why you are saying she is living a fantasy life. That implies delusions, of which I see no evidence of. I mean, it would still be an uncalled for comment even if she did experience psychosis – shouldn’t demean someone for having a mental illness and since her mental illness isn’t relevant hard to read it as anything but that.
I mean, her mental illness may have helped her figure
DannyUniverse
Heh, sentence fragment at the end is not supposed to be there.
Joyce really needs…something…to happen over this (if shes going to keep meddling) something major like losing a friendship or seeing emotionally wrecked before she realises what shes doing
Be fun getting to that point though so theres that
The consequences shouldn’t be so severe, though. Maybe just enough for her to realize Jacob is too “hot, sticky Jesus” for her widening world view.
BBCC
How about ‘Jacob stops talking to her until she realizes what she did wrong, apologizes, and makes a good faith effort to respect boundaries more’?
thejeff
Yeah, that.
Or at least gives her a good serious talking to.
Kat
And I just spent the last five minutes giggling like a schoolgirl at the phrase “hot, sticky Jesus” while alternatingly trying to figure out what it means. so…there’s that.
Wait, what does Joyce need to see consequences over again? O.o I’m sure I’m following what she’s doing wrong, did I forget a boundary being set somewhere?
Thats not the point. Deliberately trying to break up a couple is not good behaviour for anyone even if think theres a “better” fit. Jacob and Joyce are not a good fit because Jacob and Joyce are at different levels of maturity.
Jacob wants to get ahead in his studies, hes turned down free sex and partying to do well and if he got involved with Joyce then he’d be, by default, involved in all the issues with Joyces friends and he’d help because hes a good guy but it’d affect his studies
Once Joyce matures a little and gets over the whole “live happily every after” thing then maybe, if Jacob is singl, they can get together but now wouldn’t be good for either of them
Classic Appa
Deliberately trying to break up a couple is sometimes good behavior. A lot of couples suck. Means and motivations matter though, and we don’t know those yet, so it’s all up in the air.
Agreed, we currently don’t know Joyce’s motives for still being interested in Jacob.
It could be she agrees with Sarah and wants to break up Jacob and Raidah (which would be rather immoral, but doesn’t seem like Joyce’s ‘style’ per say).
It could be that Joyce just wants that booty for herself (understandable, I mean just look at Jacobs bod and personality, but still mildly evil and as Joyce is the most perfect cinnamon bun, probably not her motivation)
If I was to take a guess, she has a different motivation, it could well be she still wants to took Jacob up with Sarah, something we’ve seen she’s already plotting to do, and since she’s unfazed by Sarah’s underhanded schemes there’s no reason to believe she wouldn’t continue to do so. In all likelyhood it’s possible she’ll just get more dastardly at that objectiive, but again, just a guess.
Ecostarr
No, it’s not. Ever. Maybe one day you’ll understand why.
BBCC
I mean, if they were abusive or seriously toxic, breaking them up by talking to the abused party (or both if its toxic) about your concerns or by calling the police to have a violent party arrested would be okay, but this is not that.
Victor
Yes, sometimes it is. I’m pretty old, so I doubt I’ll be changing my mind on that one.
HeySo
It’s easier, lazier, and all around less stressful to not interfere in someone else’s relationships. ..there is absolutely no inherent “better” or “worse” to it, anymore than there is to any other (general sense) relationship interaction. The specific circumstances, the type of bonds one has with the individual, and manner of one’s approach all dictate the merits of social interactions.
Honestly, family (and those we consider like family) meddle in our relationships all the time and, assuming we have healthy relationships with them and healthy mental states ourselves, that’s always a good thing. I mean, in a “trusted, beloved second set of eyes” sense, not a “meddling, never-satisfied mother-in-law stereotype” sense.
If one thinks lack of input in relationships is an absolute, then that indicates that all of one’s relationships- family, friend, or romantic- had been shallow up to the point where one has that consideration. Or, as a more hopeful alternative, that someone simply didn’t think things through all the way.
As far as “throw people together because we think they’d go well together (as friends or otherwise)”, that’s something we do all the time. We’re just typically less convoluted in our intentions and emphatic about the pushing than Joyce is likely to be. The line that one can cross is at the point where one engages in something that’s actively detrimental to someone else- anything before that is just shades of the same approach we use in anything.
Doesn’t mean Joyce’s approach is mature, just that it isn’t harmful to anyone. In fact, since everyone involved is capable of making their own decisions in the matter, it may be a good thing, since broadening our horizons and getting to know unlikely people is generally a good thing for us. And, at the point where things get problematic, we’re capable of cutting off contact.
Basically, being used to having basic maturity and interacting with those that have similar, one finds that the thing one SHOULD be lazy and dismissive of is how others approach their relationships. Because, really, it’s their business. So long as noone is being manipulated [and no, this doesn’t count as manipulation. Manipulative motivation does not equate to manipulative action.] or hurt, we’ve no concern to have about it. And, y’know, when they are? Hey, guess what. We can meddle, if we feel we’ve justification to.
..see how that loops around?
thejeff
Motivation and means both matter.
Trying to help someone out of a toxic relationship – or help them realize it’s toxic, can be a good thing, though risky. It can easily backfire, if they aren’t ready and cut you off, leaving them with even less support.
Trying to destroy someone else’s relationship for selfish motives is wrong, regardless of how you go about it. Some methods are of course worse than others, but it’s still harmful. Relationships blowing up hurt. Even a failed attempt, if it has any effect at all, is likely to cause a bunch of painful relationship drama.
And Joyce is almost certainly going to be manipulative here, if she continues, which judging by that last panel she will. How effective she’ll be is another question, of course. At the very least, she’ll be seeing him under false pretenses – pretending it’s just as friends, while actually trying to get him to like her romantically.
You really can’t actually destroy someone else’s healthy relationship though. The people in the relationship are the ones who dictate how it functions. Sure outside pressures can influence behavior, but if they’re able to influence behavior in a direction that damages the relationship, then the relationship was not healthy to begin with.
This is just speaking as someone who has been married for a while in a very strong relationship. In a healthy relationship, when you encounter problems, you talk about them and work on them together. Literally no outside person could break me and my husband up because no part of us, even subconsciously, has any desire for that to happen no matter who else comes along.
@autogatos, that’s bullshit. A healthy relationship absolutely CAN be destroyed by outside factors
Trauma, for example. Many couples fall apart after something terrible happens to one or both people. Not because they weren’t a healthy couple, but because it put more strain on the relationship than they could handle, or it screwed up the dynamic in a way they were unable to adapt to, or simply because it changed things too much.
Claiming that a relationship is only healthy if it cannot be destroyed from without is like saying a body is only healthy if you cannot be killed except by old age. It’s completely ridiculous.
Now, there are ways that Joyce could seek a romantic relationship with Jacob which would be honest and ethical, and ways that would not. if Joyce doesn’t attempt to manipulate Jacob, and is honest about her intentions, I don’t see a ethical problem with it
Attempting to poison his existing relationship with Raidah in some way would be shitty of her. And yes, the possibility of her being able to that would not prove the relationship was unhealthy, much less make it ethical. Imagine if someone tried to poison HER relationship with one of her male friends by trying to subtly compare them to Ryan. That would not in any way show that friendship was unhealthy if it worked, or be okay.
thejeff
So therefore there is no blame, no problem with anyone attempting to do so? They’ll just fail if it’s a good relationship and if they don’t it wasn’t and deserved to be broken anyway. Kind of self justifying.
I disagree. There is a moral component to even making the attempt. Succeed or fail, it’s still an attempt to harm.
And it could well be that a relationship might be having some problems, but left to themselves, they’d be able to work through them and build a stronger one, but with the extra pressure at the right time …
Well personally I’ve experienced trauma that put a strain on my relationship, and we still worked through it. I’m not going to make a claim to the universality of that though as that’s a much more complex issue, and isn’t what I was talking about anyway.
I didn’t say outside factors can never damage a healthy relationship. I said an outside person trying to break up the relationship because they have the hots for one of the people in it isn’t going to succeed if the relationship is healthy.
Even if they resort to lies/manipulation (which is obviously wrong, not saying it’s not) because in a healthy established relationship you trust and communicate with your partner enough to know when you’re being lied to about them. If some girl who had the hots for my husband tried to tell him awful things about me to convince him to leave me…it wouldn’t work because we’re close enough to not buy into that kind of BS.
@thejeff I didn’t say there’s never any blame or problem with it. Obviously lying and manipulation are wrong regardless of the outcome. I’m just saying if it’s a healthy relationship, it won’t work.
And if the person (we’ll call them person A) DOESN’T resort to lying or manipulation, but just behaves as a kind friend while secretly carrying a torch for someone, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. That’s life. People can’t control how they feel.
And eventually based on this friendship person B decides they’d rather be with this person instead, then clearly their relationship wasn’t that healthy/strong.
And it’s probably worth saying, to be clear, I’m not saying any of this to defend past personal behavior. I’ve never entered a relationship by “stealing” someone away from their previous girlfriend. I’m just speaking as someone who has had a lot of awful, and finally one good, relationships.
Again, you’re saying “if I can kill it, it’s not murder”. Relationships can be healthy, but not PERFECTLY SO. Yes, a healthy couple talks to each other about their feelings before things get out of hand, making them less vulnerable to outside manipulation.
But not everyone is GOOD at that. Teenagers especially are still learning, but so are adults. We have issues that can make us slow to realize something is wrong or how to handle it. We accumulate baggage. We have changes in how we interpret each other’s behavior that can ruin a relationship if exploited. New couples haven’t yet learned to read each other well to avert stupid problems from blowing up into serious ones.
“Healthy” isn’t a binary state for relationships. There’s a whole spectrum. Not ALL of the healthy end is impervious to outside interference by other human beings. I cannot stand that kind of absolutist, black-and-white nonsense. It hurts people and gets used to blame them or ignore their pain.
I’m sorry but I have a hard time believing a relationship in which someone is willing to cheat is healthy. THAT kind of attitude hurts people, and causes people to forgive unacceptable behavior or stay in relationships that are absolutely wrong for them. Just because a lot of people’s relationships are shitty doesn’t mean we should lower the bar for what constitutes “healthy” to the point where willingness to cheat is considered within the spectrum of healthy.
I’m not saying “healthy” is too high of a bar to set. I’m saying perfect is. And I never once mentioned cheating. One person getting caught cheating is not the only thing that can cause people to break up, and it’s not what I meant by outside manipulation
Convincing one person the other is cheating would be closer to what I meant. If the seed of doubt can be planted, it can be hard to uproot, since you can’t prove a negative. I mentioned that hypothetical with Joyce for a reason. It’s entirely possible to prey on other, less extreme fears, doubts, or insecurities to taint how they interpret someone’s behavior. Mike pulls that kind of shit all the time, and it can damage or destroy perfectly healthy relationships.
THAT’S the kind of shit I’m talking about. No cheating or even temptation is necessary
Speaking as a married adult in a very healthy relationship:
We have a tendency as a society to place most of the blame on “the other woman” whenever a man is unfaithful instead of acknowledging that the woman was NOT a sorceress, did not magically control him, he made his decision to cheat or leave his partner of his own free will, and being that HE’S the one actually in the relationship, most of the blame for “ruining” it should really be placed with him.
If Joyce lies or manipulates Jacob to break up his relationship, yes that’s bad, but again, he still is the one making the choice. And if all Joyce does is behave in a friendly manner towards him like she’s done so far, she’s not doing anything wrong, even if her motives are to “steal” him, because he is not an inanimate object with no conscious will, he is, again, the person in the relationship who can choose how he’s going to behave. If her friendly behavior is enough to get Jacob to leave Raidah or cheat on her, that’s on him, and clearly the relationship wasn’t that strong or healthy to begin with if that’s the choice he makes.
If someone flirted with my husband, sure, I’d be cranky with them, but it wouldn’t really be an issue because he’d shut them down because we have a healthy relationship. If your relationship is healthy, no person outside it can actually break it up.
thejeff
His responsibility. And hers. And she is lying – by omission if nothing else.
And it would be the same if it wasn’t “the other woman”, but the woman leaving for “the other man”. Very often of course, the man who’s being unfaithful is often not being seduced but is the one off doing the seducing.
Nonetheless, don’t try to mess around with people in relationships. It’s not cool.
So you think that every single time a person develops feelings for a friend, they should immediately tell them, or end the friendship if that friend is in a relationship, because to not do so would be lying by omission and would be horribly wrong?
Clif
Joyce doesn’t owe Raidah anything. Jacob is a big boy and can make his own mind up about things. If Joyce and Jacob enjoy each others company, what happens is what happens. I kind of doubt you’ll see Joyce talking Raidah down or Jacob reacting well if she does. But Joyce putting her best flirtation game on, absolutely fair.
BBCC
No, no it is not. Don’t flirt with people in relationships. Joyce may not owe Raidah does, but Jacob made a commitment (granted, not the hugest commitment in the world – they’ve been dating for a couple weeks) and Joyce should respect that instead of trying to either get him to break up with her or cheat. Just because Jacob can make his own decisions doesn’t mean its right to try to break up the relationship to get with him.
What do you define as “flirting?” Some people might consider being nice and funny and friendly flirting. The only thing that defines whether or not it’s “flirting” is how the person feels, so by this logic Joyce should just not be allowed to interact with Jacob in a friendly manner ever because god forbid it damage his relationship to spend time with another girl.
Seriously, if hanging out with another girl who secretly has a crush on you is enough to make you abandon your current relationship, your current relationship didn’t stand a chance and that’s ALL on you, not on the person with the crush.
And for the record, if they were married I’d view it a bit differently, but this is a college relationship that has existed for a few weeks…it’s not exactly the most serious commitment, even if it might seem like it to them at the time. I’m not saying that gives Joyce a free pass to do whatever she wants, but I also don’t think she’s wrong in crushing on him and hoping things might go her way.
Okay, it wasn’t lethal, let’s not get carried away here. Girl won’t let the cheese touch her macaroni, how exotic can her diet be?
Screwball
You’ll be surprised, Human meatsack, YOU’LL BE SURPRISED…
X__X
Swissaboo
I already regret even thinking about this, but Joyce would probably have better smelling farts if she were a more adventurous eater. Most of the ‘low hanging fruit’ of Weird Food is vegetables (Joyce will probably try asparagus before she tries sweetbread, so to speak) and BROADLY SPEAKING meat tends towards worse smelling farts than vegetables. Put together, a more adventurous diet would PROBABLY contain less meat if she’s still eating the same amount of calories, and thus would PROBABLY produce less smelly farts depending on exactly what she’d eaten for whichever previous day.
Also, does anyone know any good monasteries for me to join in penance for this comment?
Jess
I’m on a mostly veggie diet, and have definitely noticed when I end up eating meat, the farts are WAY worse. So THIS COMMENT made me laugh out loud and it’s near 8.30am here, so that’s started my day right!
chris73
I noticed that as well although the frequency of my farts increased, I tried explaining to my wife why this was a good thing but she wasn’t having it…
HeySo
You mean, you never realized the true reason that fart-obsessed Walky eats nothing but chicken mcnuggets? 😛
189 thoughts on “Sniping”
Ana Chronistic
Joyce Performs a Scheme
JetstreamGW
Oh god she is so bad at those.
Marsh Maryrose
Joyce is bringing her A-game. I don’t know what her A-game is, but I have no doubt that it’s better than Sarah’s.
Better than Raidah’s? I’m not sure about that.
Fel
I dunno, remember the wipeboard bandit scheme? Literally nobody would have figured it out if not for her self-admission, and even then people doubted her.
Needfuldoer
Ambmazi-Girl figured it out.
HeySo
Yes, the mentally ill person who lives out a vivid fantasy life in the real world, managed to figure out the insanity that was Joyce.
..somehow I don’t think that provides any convincing evidence that anyone else could figure Joyce’s schemes out. 😛
DannyUniverse
Honestly don’t understand your dig at Amber/Amazi here. Yes, she has mental illness but that isn’t really relevant to her figuring out the ding ding dong bandit.
Also not sure why you are saying she is living a fantasy life. That implies delusions, of which I see no evidence of. I mean, it would still be an uncalled for comment even if she did experience psychosis – shouldn’t demean someone for having a mental illness and since her mental illness isn’t relevant hard to read it as anything but that.
I mean, her mental illness may have helped her figure
DannyUniverse
Heh, sentence fragment at the end is not supposed to be there.
CroakandDagger
I think I prefer “Ding Dong Desperado.”
butts
i’ll do ya one better
Schol-R-LEA
Would it be premature for me to guess that It’s Not Very Effective…?
AnvilPro
Bad Joyce!… I mean, at least she’s doing it on her own now and not being manipulated, but that just means badder Joyce!
Puckish Rogue
Joyce really needs…something…to happen over this (if shes going to keep meddling) something major like losing a friendship or seeing emotionally wrecked before she realises what shes doing
Be fun getting to that point though so theres that
Chris
The consequences shouldn’t be so severe, though. Maybe just enough for her to realize Jacob is too “hot, sticky Jesus” for her widening world view.
BBCC
How about ‘Jacob stops talking to her until she realizes what she did wrong, apologizes, and makes a good faith effort to respect boundaries more’?
thejeff
Yeah, that.
Or at least gives her a good serious talking to.
Kat
And I just spent the last five minutes giggling like a schoolgirl at the phrase “hot, sticky Jesus” while alternatingly trying to figure out what it means. so…there’s that.
Lunarius Haberdash
Wait, what does Joyce need to see consequences over again? O.o I’m sure I’m following what she’s doing wrong, did I forget a boundary being set somewhere?
Lunarius Haberdash
*not sure
Durandal_1707
Jacob and Raidah aren’t married, and Joyce and Jacob *do* fit pretty well, so eh.
Puckish Rogue
Thats not the point. Deliberately trying to break up a couple is not good behaviour for anyone even if think theres a “better” fit. Jacob and Joyce are not a good fit because Jacob and Joyce are at different levels of maturity.
Jacob wants to get ahead in his studies, hes turned down free sex and partying to do well and if he got involved with Joyce then he’d be, by default, involved in all the issues with Joyces friends and he’d help because hes a good guy but it’d affect his studies
Once Joyce matures a little and gets over the whole “live happily every after” thing then maybe, if Jacob is singl, they can get together but now wouldn’t be good for either of them
Classic Appa
Deliberately trying to break up a couple is sometimes good behavior. A lot of couples suck. Means and motivations matter though, and we don’t know those yet, so it’s all up in the air.
Jack Spade
Agreed, we currently don’t know Joyce’s motives for still being interested in Jacob.
It could be she agrees with Sarah and wants to break up Jacob and Raidah (which would be rather immoral, but doesn’t seem like Joyce’s ‘style’ per say).
It could be that Joyce just wants that booty for herself (understandable, I mean just look at Jacobs bod and personality, but still mildly evil and as Joyce is the most perfect cinnamon bun, probably not her motivation)
If I was to take a guess, she has a different motivation, it could well be she still wants to took Jacob up with Sarah, something we’ve seen she’s already plotting to do, and since she’s unfazed by Sarah’s underhanded schemes there’s no reason to believe she wouldn’t continue to do so. In all likelyhood it’s possible she’ll just get more dastardly at that objectiive, but again, just a guess.
Ecostarr
No, it’s not. Ever. Maybe one day you’ll understand why.
BBCC
I mean, if they were abusive or seriously toxic, breaking them up by talking to the abused party (or both if its toxic) about your concerns or by calling the police to have a violent party arrested would be okay, but this is not that.
Victor
Yes, sometimes it is. I’m pretty old, so I doubt I’ll be changing my mind on that one.
HeySo
It’s easier, lazier, and all around less stressful to not interfere in someone else’s relationships. ..there is absolutely no inherent “better” or “worse” to it, anymore than there is to any other (general sense) relationship interaction. The specific circumstances, the type of bonds one has with the individual, and manner of one’s approach all dictate the merits of social interactions.
Honestly, family (and those we consider like family) meddle in our relationships all the time and, assuming we have healthy relationships with them and healthy mental states ourselves, that’s always a good thing. I mean, in a “trusted, beloved second set of eyes” sense, not a “meddling, never-satisfied mother-in-law stereotype” sense.
If one thinks lack of input in relationships is an absolute, then that indicates that all of one’s relationships- family, friend, or romantic- had been shallow up to the point where one has that consideration. Or, as a more hopeful alternative, that someone simply didn’t think things through all the way.
As far as “throw people together because we think they’d go well together (as friends or otherwise)”, that’s something we do all the time. We’re just typically less convoluted in our intentions and emphatic about the pushing than Joyce is likely to be. The line that one can cross is at the point where one engages in something that’s actively detrimental to someone else- anything before that is just shades of the same approach we use in anything.
Doesn’t mean Joyce’s approach is mature, just that it isn’t harmful to anyone. In fact, since everyone involved is capable of making their own decisions in the matter, it may be a good thing, since broadening our horizons and getting to know unlikely people is generally a good thing for us. And, at the point where things get problematic, we’re capable of cutting off contact.
Basically, being used to having basic maturity and interacting with those that have similar, one finds that the thing one SHOULD be lazy and dismissive of is how others approach their relationships. Because, really, it’s their business. So long as noone is being manipulated [and no, this doesn’t count as manipulation. Manipulative motivation does not equate to manipulative action.] or hurt, we’ve no concern to have about it. And, y’know, when they are? Hey, guess what. We can meddle, if we feel we’ve justification to.
..see how that loops around?
thejeff
Motivation and means both matter.
Trying to help someone out of a toxic relationship – or help them realize it’s toxic, can be a good thing, though risky. It can easily backfire, if they aren’t ready and cut you off, leaving them with even less support.
Trying to destroy someone else’s relationship for selfish motives is wrong, regardless of how you go about it. Some methods are of course worse than others, but it’s still harmful. Relationships blowing up hurt. Even a failed attempt, if it has any effect at all, is likely to cause a bunch of painful relationship drama.
And Joyce is almost certainly going to be manipulative here, if she continues, which judging by that last panel she will. How effective she’ll be is another question, of course. At the very least, she’ll be seeing him under false pretenses – pretending it’s just as friends, while actually trying to get him to like her romantically.
autogatos
You really can’t actually destroy someone else’s healthy relationship though. The people in the relationship are the ones who dictate how it functions. Sure outside pressures can influence behavior, but if they’re able to influence behavior in a direction that damages the relationship, then the relationship was not healthy to begin with.
This is just speaking as someone who has been married for a while in a very strong relationship. In a healthy relationship, when you encounter problems, you talk about them and work on them together. Literally no outside person could break me and my husband up because no part of us, even subconsciously, has any desire for that to happen no matter who else comes along.
Fart Captor
@autogatos, that’s bullshit. A healthy relationship absolutely CAN be destroyed by outside factors
Trauma, for example. Many couples fall apart after something terrible happens to one or both people. Not because they weren’t a healthy couple, but because it put more strain on the relationship than they could handle, or it screwed up the dynamic in a way they were unable to adapt to, or simply because it changed things too much.
Claiming that a relationship is only healthy if it cannot be destroyed from without is like saying a body is only healthy if you cannot be killed except by old age. It’s completely ridiculous.
Now, there are ways that Joyce could seek a romantic relationship with Jacob which would be honest and ethical, and ways that would not. if Joyce doesn’t attempt to manipulate Jacob, and is honest about her intentions, I don’t see a ethical problem with it
Attempting to poison his existing relationship with Raidah in some way would be shitty of her. And yes, the possibility of her being able to that would not prove the relationship was unhealthy, much less make it ethical. Imagine if someone tried to poison HER relationship with one of her male friends by trying to subtly compare them to Ryan. That would not in any way show that friendship was unhealthy if it worked, or be okay.
thejeff
So therefore there is no blame, no problem with anyone attempting to do so? They’ll just fail if it’s a good relationship and if they don’t it wasn’t and deserved to be broken anyway. Kind of self justifying.
I disagree. There is a moral component to even making the attempt. Succeed or fail, it’s still an attempt to harm.
And it could well be that a relationship might be having some problems, but left to themselves, they’d be able to work through them and build a stronger one, but with the extra pressure at the right time …
autogatos
Well personally I’ve experienced trauma that put a strain on my relationship, and we still worked through it. I’m not going to make a claim to the universality of that though as that’s a much more complex issue, and isn’t what I was talking about anyway.
I didn’t say outside factors can never damage a healthy relationship. I said an outside person trying to break up the relationship because they have the hots for one of the people in it isn’t going to succeed if the relationship is healthy.
Even if they resort to lies/manipulation (which is obviously wrong, not saying it’s not) because in a healthy established relationship you trust and communicate with your partner enough to know when you’re being lied to about them. If some girl who had the hots for my husband tried to tell him awful things about me to convince him to leave me…it wouldn’t work because we’re close enough to not buy into that kind of BS.
autogatos
@thejeff I didn’t say there’s never any blame or problem with it. Obviously lying and manipulation are wrong regardless of the outcome. I’m just saying if it’s a healthy relationship, it won’t work.
And if the person (we’ll call them person A) DOESN’T resort to lying or manipulation, but just behaves as a kind friend while secretly carrying a torch for someone, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. That’s life. People can’t control how they feel.
And eventually based on this friendship person B decides they’d rather be with this person instead, then clearly their relationship wasn’t that healthy/strong.
And it’s probably worth saying, to be clear, I’m not saying any of this to defend past personal behavior. I’ve never entered a relationship by “stealing” someone away from their previous girlfriend. I’m just speaking as someone who has had a lot of awful, and finally one good, relationships.
Fart Captor
@autogatos
Again, you’re saying “if I can kill it, it’s not murder”. Relationships can be healthy, but not PERFECTLY SO. Yes, a healthy couple talks to each other about their feelings before things get out of hand, making them less vulnerable to outside manipulation.
But not everyone is GOOD at that. Teenagers especially are still learning, but so are adults. We have issues that can make us slow to realize something is wrong or how to handle it. We accumulate baggage. We have changes in how we interpret each other’s behavior that can ruin a relationship if exploited. New couples haven’t yet learned to read each other well to avert stupid problems from blowing up into serious ones.
“Healthy” isn’t a binary state for relationships. There’s a whole spectrum. Not ALL of the healthy end is impervious to outside interference by other human beings. I cannot stand that kind of absolutist, black-and-white nonsense. It hurts people and gets used to blame them or ignore their pain.
autogatos
I’m sorry but I have a hard time believing a relationship in which someone is willing to cheat is healthy. THAT kind of attitude hurts people, and causes people to forgive unacceptable behavior or stay in relationships that are absolutely wrong for them. Just because a lot of people’s relationships are shitty doesn’t mean we should lower the bar for what constitutes “healthy” to the point where willingness to cheat is considered within the spectrum of healthy.
Fart Captor
I’m not saying “healthy” is too high of a bar to set. I’m saying perfect is. And I never once mentioned cheating. One person getting caught cheating is not the only thing that can cause people to break up, and it’s not what I meant by outside manipulation
Convincing one person the other is cheating would be closer to what I meant. If the seed of doubt can be planted, it can be hard to uproot, since you can’t prove a negative. I mentioned that hypothetical with Joyce for a reason. It’s entirely possible to prey on other, less extreme fears, doubts, or insecurities to taint how they interpret someone’s behavior. Mike pulls that kind of shit all the time, and it can damage or destroy perfectly healthy relationships.
THAT’S the kind of shit I’m talking about. No cheating or even temptation is necessary
autogatos
Speaking as a married adult in a very healthy relationship:
We have a tendency as a society to place most of the blame on “the other woman” whenever a man is unfaithful instead of acknowledging that the woman was NOT a sorceress, did not magically control him, he made his decision to cheat or leave his partner of his own free will, and being that HE’S the one actually in the relationship, most of the blame for “ruining” it should really be placed with him.
If Joyce lies or manipulates Jacob to break up his relationship, yes that’s bad, but again, he still is the one making the choice. And if all Joyce does is behave in a friendly manner towards him like she’s done so far, she’s not doing anything wrong, even if her motives are to “steal” him, because he is not an inanimate object with no conscious will, he is, again, the person in the relationship who can choose how he’s going to behave. If her friendly behavior is enough to get Jacob to leave Raidah or cheat on her, that’s on him, and clearly the relationship wasn’t that strong or healthy to begin with if that’s the choice he makes.
If someone flirted with my husband, sure, I’d be cranky with them, but it wouldn’t really be an issue because he’d shut them down because we have a healthy relationship. If your relationship is healthy, no person outside it can actually break it up.
thejeff
His responsibility. And hers. And she is lying – by omission if nothing else.
And it would be the same if it wasn’t “the other woman”, but the woman leaving for “the other man”. Very often of course, the man who’s being unfaithful is often not being seduced but is the one off doing the seducing.
Nonetheless, don’t try to mess around with people in relationships. It’s not cool.
autogatos
So you think that every single time a person develops feelings for a friend, they should immediately tell them, or end the friendship if that friend is in a relationship, because to not do so would be lying by omission and would be horribly wrong?
Clif
Joyce doesn’t owe Raidah anything. Jacob is a big boy and can make his own mind up about things. If Joyce and Jacob enjoy each others company, what happens is what happens. I kind of doubt you’ll see Joyce talking Raidah down or Jacob reacting well if she does. But Joyce putting her best flirtation game on, absolutely fair.
BBCC
No, no it is not. Don’t flirt with people in relationships. Joyce may not owe Raidah does, but Jacob made a commitment (granted, not the hugest commitment in the world – they’ve been dating for a couple weeks) and Joyce should respect that instead of trying to either get him to break up with her or cheat. Just because Jacob can make his own decisions doesn’t mean its right to try to break up the relationship to get with him.
autogatos
What do you define as “flirting?” Some people might consider being nice and funny and friendly flirting. The only thing that defines whether or not it’s “flirting” is how the person feels, so by this logic Joyce should just not be allowed to interact with Jacob in a friendly manner ever because god forbid it damage his relationship to spend time with another girl.
Seriously, if hanging out with another girl who secretly has a crush on you is enough to make you abandon your current relationship, your current relationship didn’t stand a chance and that’s ALL on you, not on the person with the crush.
autogatos
And for the record, if they were married I’d view it a bit differently, but this is a college relationship that has existed for a few weeks…it’s not exactly the most serious commitment, even if it might seem like it to them at the time. I’m not saying that gives Joyce a free pass to do whatever she wants, but I also don’t think she’s wrong in crushing on him and hoping things might go her way.
Fart Captor
We ONLY know that Joyce is scheming. We don’t know WHAT she’s scheming.
Maybe she’s gonna get Sarah and Amber together. Maybe she’s gonna get back at Sarah for tricking her. Maybe she’s gonna do a murder. WE DON’T KNOW
Doctor_Who
And as soon as the door closed, Joyce let out the biggest fart ever. From that day forth, Sarah knew to never mess with her again.
Aislashu
Aaaand I’m dead.
Doctor_Who
Okay, it wasn’t lethal, let’s not get carried away here. Girl won’t let the cheese touch her macaroni, how exotic can her diet be?
Screwball
You’ll be surprised, Human meatsack, YOU’LL BE SURPRISED…
X__X
Swissaboo
I already regret even thinking about this, but Joyce would probably have better smelling farts if she were a more adventurous eater. Most of the ‘low hanging fruit’ of Weird Food is vegetables (Joyce will probably try asparagus before she tries sweetbread, so to speak) and BROADLY SPEAKING meat tends towards worse smelling farts than vegetables. Put together, a more adventurous diet would PROBABLY contain less meat if she’s still eating the same amount of calories, and thus would PROBABLY produce less smelly farts depending on exactly what she’d eaten for whichever previous day.
Also, does anyone know any good monasteries for me to join in penance for this comment?
Jess
I’m on a mostly veggie diet, and have definitely noticed when I end up eating meat, the farts are WAY worse. So THIS COMMENT made me laugh out loud and it’s near 8.30am here, so that’s started my day right!
chris73
I noticed that as well although the frequency of my farts increased, I tried explaining to my wife why this was a good thing but she wasn’t having it…
HeySo
You mean, you never realized the true reason that fart-obsessed Walky eats nothing but chicken mcnuggets? 😛
Amazi-Stool
Butt-Tacos are made out of chicken-butts?
Jhon
Benjamin Franklin covered this in his essay “Fart Proudly”.
you can look it up
Liquid Len
Doc, That sounded to me like a new Joyce euphemism for hanky-panky. And I giggled.
Fart Captor
HOW DARE
Delavan
Use your powers for good Joyce, only for good….
Nick Piers
Dun-dun-DUN!
Roger
what is that face for
Mordecai
Whuzzat smirk mean
Puckish Rogue
I foresee no way Joyces issues with ignoring boundaries will cause a problem
Falling Star
so says the great zoltron.
…oh, wait, the machine’s busted.
Kernanator
Joyce Brown has planzzzz.
Doctor_Who
Why univerzzze hate Joyzzzzepinator?
Inahc
ROFL
Passchendaele
Time for some epic *speedwalking action*.
Stephen Bierce
*plays “I Miss My Man (But My Aim Is Getting Better) on the hacked Muzak*
Falling Star
https://youtu.be/UwbqPPSUp90
tyranidswarm
Joyce…….. what are you thinking about?
gkheyf
Huh…wonder which walkyverss Joyce we’re talking about “-_-
Koms
The anti Joyce?
Eldritch Gentleman
Row Row Fight the Power. Get those drills spinning!
SgtWadeyWilson
I’m not sure, but I’m starting to suspect that she’s actually replaced her DoA self. It’s the only logical answer!
…or maybe I’m just addicted to alternate universe shenanigans.
Lingo