Looking foward to the comments making this into a joke/second hand embarassment and/or trying to justify it. :/
At least Ethan will be appropiately mad about this.
Honestly, this goes beyond “danning it up” and goes straight into “being an asshole”. More than that, this is arguably far worse than anything Mike himself has said within the comic. At least the worst of Mike’s comments could still be taken as being critical, Danny’s comment here is just flat out spiteful (regardless of whether one views it as warranted it or not) and inappropriate (given that it’s to one of Mike’s best friends, however awkward such friendship may be).
We all have horrible fleeting inner thoughts from time to time. We just usually realise them and think ‘no, that’s horrible’ internally. If you could hear everyone’s thoughts (like in British comedy Peep Show) people would appear much less nice seeming individuals.
The Danning it here is speaking that thought out loud before he’s had time to think about it and reflect on how it’s horrible.
He could still also really easily save this by saying something like “because wouldn’t it be better for everything to calm down a bit so he wakes up in a calm supportive environment rather than having everyone and their parents stressed up to a hundred? “
HeySo
“We all have horrible fleeting inner thoughts from time to time. ”
Well, I don’t [at least, not within the format in question], but I’m also neuroatypical, so I guess that doesn’t mean much relative to your point.
That said, your point does still fall through (if it’s intended as any kind of argument against my points), given that 1: It’s an act of “assholery” by common interpretation once it has left his mouth and 2: It’s still “out-Mikeing Mike”.
So if we acknowledge your point, the only difference is that he’s now not only being an OverMiked Asshole, but he’s also Danning it up. Which really just makes it worse, I think. 😛
That said, the fact that he’s no doubt going to stumble and make things worse [y’know, by not using your suggested recovery or any of the others commenters on this page have provided] immediately after this is definitely where “Danning it up” will become a certain attribution. So we’ll definitely get to that, even if we haven’t already. So for now, I think we can just focus on the assholery, without the danning getting “left out” any. 😛
And to avoid any sort of miscommunication, do reread my original post and note that I wasn’t intentionally attributing anything towards Danny’s character, as my focus was on the interpretation of his actions. Though once on the topic, I can’t argue the attribution to character either, given how unfamiliar the premise is to me.
From my perspective, your agument would boil down to “everyone’s an asshole sometimes”. Well, though I guess if we put it that broadly, I can’t argue it regardless of whether we’re focusing on normative or abberational states.. 😛
Oh, hey, no, I got this:
“Everyone’s a little bit
Assholeish, sometimes.
Doesn’t mean we go around committing
to Dannyish paradigms“
Leo
My argument was more on the lines of that we all have thoughts that we don’t say out loud because we don’t want to upset people. You *must* have had those before right? Those of us with ASD might struggle a little, but there’s generally a filter between thoughts arising from the subconscious and which of those we articulate. Very few of us will openly vocalise everything we think without filter.
Whether its thinking that a person who won’t stop talking about something you’re not interested in would shut up, that a person you don’t like deserved something bad that happened to them etc. we do all have thoughts occasionally we know aren’t the nicest and wouldn’t actually vocalise. None of us are saints – it’s our actions, not our thoughts we should be judged on.
Mike has been an ass to Danny in the past, and Danny is very jealous and annoyed by his relationship with Ethan (which was supposedly actually what Mike what aiming to do) so it’s clear why this thought went through his mind.
But he clearly had no intention of vocalising it. The look of surprise on his face in the last panel clearly shows that. That’s why I think this is Danning it rather than being an asshole. It wasn’t deliberate, he didn’t intend to upset anyone, his filter just broke at the worst possible moment in true Danny fashion and he’s as shocked by it as Ethan.
It’s the difference between deliberately running down someone in your car, and accidentally screwing up and slamming the gas rather than the brake when you see them. Neither are great, but the latter makes you an idiot rather than a villain.
I’m nor sure it’s spiteful. Danny isn’t intending to be mean (even to mike) he’s just, stupidly, stating his initial thought. While not wishing harm on anyone I think most people know one or two people they wish they just didn’t have to be around anymore.
HeySo
The comment itself is spiteful, that just can’t be argued.
You can argue his inner rationality, but if we were to factor that in, then we’d also have to excuse anything Mike has ever said as being entirely okay- after all, unlike with Danny here, we’ve actually seen implication that Mike has constructive purposes for at least some of the things he’s said.
Or at the very least, is annoyed enough with hypocrisy that he has some form of justification. In other words, Danny’s comment ends up being harder to justify than anything Mike has presented, while coming across far worse than anything Mike has presented.
And, again, regardless of the intentions of either individual, their comments have had/will have negative consequences because of how the comments are interpreted. There’s no arguing that this comment isn’t readily interpretable in a very, very bad way.
HeySo
tl;dr version: The comment is spiteful, the intention likely isn’t.
Jenny Islander
Is the comment spiteful, or is it tired?
I have longed for some people to fall into comas or even die, because their personal bullshit seemed to require my involvement somehow and they would not take “You are a colossal ass and you exhaust me with your relentless assishness, go away” as an answer. I didn’t hate them. I didn’t want them to be in pain. I just wanted them to STOP, and it seemed to me that they would never stop unless something stopped them.
Now, actually letting that come out of my mouth? Baaaad idea.
HeySo
“Now, actually letting that come out of my mouth? Baaaad idea.”
Exactly? Are you confusing sentiment and statement? The statement is inherently “bad”, regardless of the sentiment behind it. Once we factor in context [ie, Ethan being his friend] we get a rather problematic situation which, again, far exceeds anything we’ve seen Mike himself do within the comic itself.
Rather, if Mike is annoyingly poking people with verbal needles, then Danny just splashed verbal urine into Ethan’s face. Unless Ethan is into that kind of thing, it doesn’t really matter if Danny can attribute it to a cognitive bladder issue or not- it’s still likely to “rain on” their friendship.
a/snow/mous/e
Where is this implication though
thejeff
Mike himself realized while listening to Blaine in the fight that his “constructive purposes” were still harmful. That he sounded like Blaine.
Danny’s comment was really bad, though I’m not sure “spiteful” is the best description. Unlike Mike though, there was no plan behind it, it wasn’t calculated, it wasn’t aimed at manipulating someone or taking advantage of a weakness. It was a just a shitty thing that slipped out and Danny himself is horrified that he said as soon as he heard it come it.
The comparison to Mike pretty much ends with “said a shitty thing”.
HeySo
” it wasn’t calculated, it wasn’t aimed at manipulating someone or taking advantage of a weakness. ”
In other words, unlike Mike, it didn’t have any intelligence behind it. Add in that it was “more shitty” (if only due to context, though I’d argue inherent format as well), and you’ve got a worse outcome.
Nevermind that a friend who could justify or benefit me with their negativity would be much more preferrable to me than someone who just says mindless nasty things [towards one of my best friends and lover, no less] out of the blue, within one of the worst contexts possible.
Again, Danny can justify the sentiment all he wants- much like Mike can with his comments- but once we analyze the comments themselves, Danny clearly just crossed a line (that Mike has yet to have crossed).
HeySo
” though I’m not sure “spiteful” is the best description ”
When a comment is spiteful, it holds to a structure which gives a clear intent of being rude/offensive, hurtful, aggravating, or malicious, and such comments are most strongly characterized as being spiteful when presented in a petty manner.
When an intent is spiteful, the same holds true internally, but the comment itself may be far more subtle than a a spiteful comment, meaning that it’s possible to have a spiteful intent without a spiteful comment [thanks to subtext].
Once again, this isn’t about sentiment, so let’s focus on the comment itself: Something which reads as “I hope they never wake up” strikes me as being extremely petty, and with having a rather clear intent to be offensive, rude, or hurtful.
If you’ve got a better word, please do recommend it, but this is pretty much exactly what “spiteful” is generally associated with [at least, by definition and by my personal experiences] and, at the very least, is going to be similar enough to whichever word one eventually goes with that there’s a clear association of intention, meaning that there’s no basis for vocabulary correction [as there woud be if a given phrasing is confusing or misleading as to a writer’s actual intention].
I keep just saying “this is a mindblowingly awful thing to say, will be interpreted extremely badly by a typical mindset given its structure”, and I’m really confused as to why anyone would argue against that. Rather, anyone who would most certainly would not be someone I’d want to be friends or even acquaintances with.. that sounds like a rather toxic framework by which to be interacting with others.
Yumi
“I keep just saying “this is a mindblowingly awful thing to say, will be interpreted extremely badly by a typical mindset given its structure”, and I’m really confused as to why anyone would argue against that.”
I agree with this phrasing of what you’re trying to say. People clearly feel differently about what the term “spiteful” conveys. As to some of your other points:
“In other words, unlike Mike, it didn’t have any intelligence behind it”– or, unlike Mike, it was an accident. I think it makes sense that many people (such as those in the audience) would be more forgiving of an accident than intentional cruelty.
There’s also Danny’s immediate reaction of “Oh shit, bad bad bad” that probably wins him sympathy here (from the readers). Accidentally saying something you wish you hadn’t and the immediate regret is relatable to many people.
“this is pretty much exactly what “spiteful” is generally associated with [at least, by definition and by my personal experiences]”– a basic definition of “spiteful” is “showing or caused by malice.” A basic definition of “malice” is “the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.” So for me, based on definition and experience, something can be hurtful without being spiteful, and that’s where I’d put this comment. Yes, because “sentiment,” because yes, sentiment matters to the accuracy of the word.
HeySo
For the purpose of spiteful, malice is just considered a shorthand for the “rude/offensive, hurtful, aggravating, or malicious” I detailed above. I already detailed the distinction between statement [ie, reading comprehension] and sentiment [ie, concious will] above.
As I already noted, a statement can be spiteful even if the intent is not, and a statement may not read as spiteful even if the intent was for it to be such. Note also that spiteful is characterized by pettiness and ill will, while malice (on its own) is generally a word less associated with pettiness.
Again, if you can find another word that fits better [for the statement, we’re ignoring sentiment for this discussion], shoot for it, I’m all ears. Malice is definitely off the table, though. 🙂
Vocabulary discussion aside, I’m fully aware the intelligence vs foolishness is going to be subjective. But the very fact that it is was part of my point, in that we can’t really say Danny’s statement [again, statement, not sentiment or intent! ..though given the next comic, that doesn’t seem to be all that great, either] is less harmful or more excusable than anything Mike has ever said.
Which definitely gives the statement a sort of hypocritical vibe, given that it was both unnecessary and uncalled for [there’s nothing hypocritical about feeling aggravated, upset, disdainful, petty/spiteful, or so forth towards someone one is incompatible with, but this clearly goes beyond basic reactionary dislike and straight into active hostility.
Though one could argue that’s due to the phrasing (which humans can easily fumble with, relative to their intentions), as ‘I’d personally be glad to be free of Mike for a while’ carries much the same meaning, but has a rather different tone. Though even that would be inappropriate given the context].
HeySo
” or, unlike Mike, it was an accident.”
Again, that’s sentiment not statement. I’m just approaching reading comprehension/Ethan’s reaction. Never once focused on Danny’s underlying psyche, except as a response to others bringing it up. ^.^
Yumi
I disagree with your understanding of the word “spiteful.” I think others do as well. I also think you’re setting a lot of rules for people to engage in discussion with you without allowing for people to disagree with those rules.
It’s not out-Miking Mike. It’s a horrible thing to say, but it’s not at all a Mike thing to say. This isn’t aimed at anyone, it’s not targeting a weakness, it’s just a stupid passing thought blurted out in Danny’s confusion. Which we saw precedent for yesterday.
Danny can still do a Dan-pirouette into a millenialist standby, a-la “I meant, things really suck right now anyway, is a coma really that bad by comparison?”
But he might still wind up with one foot in his mouth. Hm…
ego
but that was what he was hoping for, amiright?
Miri
I think the “save” is “if he spends longer in the coma then he doesn’t need to deal with the pain of his broken bones, right?”
I…completely agree that this is a stupid thing to say and a terrible thing to think…
I just find it surprising it’s being so broadly condemned (granted, in the first 20 minutes of comments), given it seems a fair bit of the commentariate expressed similar sentiments throughout much of the last chapter as well as the first strips confirming Mike’s coma status. Feels…jarring.
I mean, it’s complicated, and probably partly just different people making the comments. But I do think there is a difference in judgement about how real people talk about fictional characters, vs how a (fictional) person talks about another person. Like, me saying “hopefully Mike doesn’t wake up” is different than Danny saying that because from Danny’s (fictional) perspective, Mike is a real person. As is Ethan, who is the person likely to be actually “hurt” here.
Regalli
Yeah, it’s kind of like how the Wilcox parents were EXTREMELY deprecating of him during family weekend, not far removed from what comments said about Danny at the time… but that reads dramatically differently and dramatically worse coming from people inhabiting the same universe as him, especially when they’re his PARENTS.
clif
I think that the skew in the comments comes from the fact that we know Ethan has feelings for Mike and Danny doesn’t. How dare he act based on things he has no way of knowing. At this point, blaming Danny for what he doesn’t know is a time honored tradition. Don’t fight it, embrace it.
beige
…Danny is 100% aware Ethan has feelings for Mike. He’s seen them together. He’s heard the stories
the fact he wants mike to stay in a coma is probably strongly related too that
and this isn’t blaming him for ‘something he doesn’t know’ – this is reacting to him telling someone he hopes one of their oldest friend and person they have expressed affection and attraction to before (things danny does know) and who is clearly very, very upset about it…. that he hopes they never wake up?
and even without all the other context, even if he didn’t know all the above, going into a hospital to tell someone visiting soomeone in a coma you hope the person doesn’t wake up? there’s no way thats not fucked up
Shadow Dreamer
I think what’s worth noting here- I don’t think Dan meant to say that out loud. If that last panel there, of immediate ‘what the fuck just came out of my facehole’ is any indication, that was his mouth acting on autopilot- Ethan makes question noise, out comes what’s in head. He’s already trying to keep something else from slipping out- and when you’re trying not to think of elephants, sometimes you get a rhino instead.
Does that make it okay? No. But we shouldn’t attribute malice, where stupidity is the likely answer.
HeySo
^ This.
HeySo
Ugh. Got position-sniped, and the structure of this comment section is a disaster. ^This @beige, not at Shadow.
Rather, @Shadow:
If you’re thinking we’re attributing malice, then I think you’re misinterpreting, since I’m not getting that impression from the comments I’m reading, nor did I intend that with my own comments. People can make mistakes or act poorly without malice.
Heck, one could argue that most drunken mishaps (up to and including abuse) are done without malice- a dark inherent nature akin to malice for some, perhaps [eg, mood disorders], but nothing conciously willful. But even with the jutification that malice wasn’t intended, it doesn’t mean that an action can’t be destructive and poorly-received.
No matter how little malice was involved, we can’t avoid the fact that, as beige so aptly put it: “there’s no way [that behavior isn’t] fucked up”
HeySo
**To be clear, referencing individuals who are abusive/otherwise problematic exclusively while drunk, and even there only intending to indicate that some may perhaps be able to attribute their actions to things other than malice. Others may perhaps just use the alcohol as an excuse.
Just noting this lest anyone interpret some sort of “alcohol-based actions can’t be based in malice” sentiment from that section.
I think it’s less about Mike for most people and more that he said it to Ethan. ETHAN. Who despite all the fuckery that Mike was doing… still considered him a good friend. Hell, they were even lovers for a time. And I hear for some people even when it’s mindless sex, it can somehow bring them closer together and further cement a friendship.
Like… you don’t just say that to a person. Especially not a person who clearly has been as this hospital for days to be with said comatose person. It’s more that Dan has probably irrevocably fucked up what little progress of a friendship with Ethan that he had.
Aviana
This exactly.
thejeff
I don’t know. It’s certainly painful for Ethan to hear, but I think you could make a good case for Danny basically being right and maybe this being a time to say it. An intervention, if you will.
Sure, Ethan’s emotionally attached to him, but even Ethan’s acknowledged he’s not at all sure Mike’s really a friend. While sex can cement a relationship, that’s not a good thing if the relationship is abusive, which this one arguably has been. Some time without Mike’s presence might well be the best thing for Ethan, even if this is a horrible way to get it.
Mind you, I don’t think Danny’s actually ready to make that argument and I doubt he was even thinking about it consciously. It also doesn’t take into consideration the revelation Mike had during the fight and how that might change him – which Danny certainly doesn’t know anything about.
Insufficient Data
I’m gonna say when someone is in the hospital outside the person’s room (and the person is in a coma after heroically sacrificing himself for someone’s other best friend), then no, it is really, really not the right time to say it. Even if Ethan genuinely needed an intervention, doing it now would be guaranteed to make him defensive and even more attached to Mike. Also, suggesting that maybe it would be better if Mike didn’t wake up is also a great way to get Ethan defending Mike, so if it was an attempt at an intervention, it would backfire hugely. Honestly, if it was an attempt at an intervention it would be *worse* than whatit actually is, which just is Danny saying something dumb without thinking.
I feel the same way, like what, this comments section hates Mike. But it might not be the same people as I don’t keep track. I think people just like criticizing certain characters no matter what they do.
BBCC
I can’t speak for everyone, but here’s my two cents:
Mike is a horrible person to everyone, consistently. Danny’s not obligated to forgive or forget that.
However, wishing serious harm on someone real is not really something I’m generally comfortable with and to Danny, Mike is not only real, he’s saying this to one of Mike’s best friends. I’d be more understanding if this was a horrible thought he said in a moment of emotionality to someone else, but saying it to his best friend? Beyond out of line.
We’re not saying it about a real person to their friend’s face… There’s a difference between talking shit about a bad person where it only hurts them (or hurts nobody) vs. where you manage to hit a decent person with the blowback.
Meagan
Sounds two-faced and like a double standard to me.
His reaction to the Dorothy breakup and ‘stupid Yale’ wasn’t great.
But was it THIS bad? No. No, and at least this time, he recognizes immediately how bad it is.
Doctor_Who
The fact that saying it immediately transported him to the Upside Down was probably a clue.
Regalli
Also true.
I mean the ‘stop being AG’ argument right before his breakup with Amber was also unknowingly more or less advocating someone die, and it was his actual girlfriend, but there he had no realization whatsoever that there WAS a dissociative split and the gap between the two alters was steadily widening as the relationship had been going on, because *gestures to Amber’s Many Sources of Trauma*. So I’m willing to put that as something he had virtually no context for or way of knowing that WAS what he was saying.
Here? Yeah, no, straight to the Upside Down is merited.
He Who Abides
Should we start calling it “his break-up with Amazi-Girl” at this point? I mean, since we’re now 100% sure that Mazi is a wholly different person than Amber at this point.
298 thoughts on “Alone time”
Ana Chronistic
“WELP, TIME TO JOIN MIKE IN THE ABYSS” *digs the biggest hole and jumps in and pulls all the dirt behind him*
Kyrik Michalowski
He’ll have a hard time digging that hole with one of his feet lodged in his throat.
clif
He’s highly skilled. He doesn’t need feet to Dan it up.
Makkabee
Or femurs.
Mishyana
You say one like he didn’t just manage to wedge both all the way in there
Newllend(henryvolt)
He had a good run not doing it for a while, but it looks like once again he (say it with me now) Danned it up.
MK15
This…
Regalli
You know, I almost thought we could retire it for Dumbingverse Danny, and Walkyverse Danny’s through most of his truly Danning moments in the reruns.
WELP.
Crash
Looking foward to the comments making this into a joke/second hand embarassment and/or trying to justify it. :/
At least Ethan will be appropiately mad about this.
clif
To paraphrase Mike post “hail Satan” – like you weren’t thinking it.
Deanatay
Mike (yes, still in coma): Sick burn, man. I acknowledge that.
JetstreamGW
Hahahahahah he won’t even get to get broken up with this time.
HeySo
Honestly, this goes beyond “danning it up” and goes straight into “being an asshole”. More than that, this is arguably far worse than anything Mike himself has said within the comic. At least the worst of Mike’s comments could still be taken as being critical, Danny’s comment here is just flat out spiteful (regardless of whether one views it as warranted it or not) and inappropriate (given that it’s to one of Mike’s best friends, however awkward such friendship may be).
Newllend(henryvolt)
You right, he might have just out Miked Mike. It’s Quite a feat but not really a victory to be cherished considering what it might cost him.
Leo
We all have horrible fleeting inner thoughts from time to time. We just usually realise them and think ‘no, that’s horrible’ internally. If you could hear everyone’s thoughts (like in British comedy Peep Show) people would appear much less nice seeming individuals.
The Danning it here is speaking that thought out loud before he’s had time to think about it and reflect on how it’s horrible.
He could still also really easily save this by saying something like “because wouldn’t it be better for everything to calm down a bit so he wakes up in a calm supportive environment rather than having everyone and their parents stressed up to a hundred? “
HeySo
“We all have horrible fleeting inner thoughts from time to time. ”
Well, I don’t [at least, not within the format in question], but I’m also neuroatypical, so I guess that doesn’t mean much relative to your point.
That said, your point does still fall through (if it’s intended as any kind of argument against my points), given that 1: It’s an act of “assholery” by common interpretation once it has left his mouth and 2: It’s still “out-Mikeing Mike”.
So if we acknowledge your point, the only difference is that he’s now not only being an OverMiked Asshole, but he’s also Danning it up. Which really just makes it worse, I think. 😛
That said, the fact that he’s no doubt going to stumble and make things worse [y’know, by not using your suggested recovery or any of the others commenters on this page have provided] immediately after this is definitely where “Danning it up” will become a certain attribution. So we’ll definitely get to that, even if we haven’t already. So for now, I think we can just focus on the assholery, without the danning getting “left out” any. 😛
And to avoid any sort of miscommunication, do reread my original post and note that I wasn’t intentionally attributing anything towards Danny’s character, as my focus was on the interpretation of his actions. Though once on the topic, I can’t argue the attribution to character either, given how unfamiliar the premise is to me.
From my perspective, your agument would boil down to “everyone’s an asshole sometimes”. Well, though I guess if we put it that broadly, I can’t argue it regardless of whether we’re focusing on normative or abberational states.. 😛
Oh, hey, no, I got this:
“Everyone’s a little bit
Assholeish, sometimes.
Doesn’t mean we go around committing
to Dannyish paradigms“
Leo
My argument was more on the lines of that we all have thoughts that we don’t say out loud because we don’t want to upset people. You *must* have had those before right? Those of us with ASD might struggle a little, but there’s generally a filter between thoughts arising from the subconscious and which of those we articulate. Very few of us will openly vocalise everything we think without filter.
Whether its thinking that a person who won’t stop talking about something you’re not interested in would shut up, that a person you don’t like deserved something bad that happened to them etc. we do all have thoughts occasionally we know aren’t the nicest and wouldn’t actually vocalise. None of us are saints – it’s our actions, not our thoughts we should be judged on.
Mike has been an ass to Danny in the past, and Danny is very jealous and annoyed by his relationship with Ethan (which was supposedly actually what Mike what aiming to do) so it’s clear why this thought went through his mind.
But he clearly had no intention of vocalising it. The look of surprise on his face in the last panel clearly shows that. That’s why I think this is Danning it rather than being an asshole. It wasn’t deliberate, he didn’t intend to upset anyone, his filter just broke at the worst possible moment in true Danny fashion and he’s as shocked by it as Ethan.
It’s the difference between deliberately running down someone in your car, and accidentally screwing up and slamming the gas rather than the brake when you see them. Neither are great, but the latter makes you an idiot rather than a villain.
monkyvirus
I’m nor sure it’s spiteful. Danny isn’t intending to be mean (even to mike) he’s just, stupidly, stating his initial thought. While not wishing harm on anyone I think most people know one or two people they wish they just didn’t have to be around anymore.
HeySo
The comment itself is spiteful, that just can’t be argued.
You can argue his inner rationality, but if we were to factor that in, then we’d also have to excuse anything Mike has ever said as being entirely okay- after all, unlike with Danny here, we’ve actually seen implication that Mike has constructive purposes for at least some of the things he’s said.
Or at the very least, is annoyed enough with hypocrisy that he has some form of justification. In other words, Danny’s comment ends up being harder to justify than anything Mike has presented, while coming across far worse than anything Mike has presented.
And, again, regardless of the intentions of either individual, their comments have had/will have negative consequences because of how the comments are interpreted. There’s no arguing that this comment isn’t readily interpretable in a very, very bad way.
HeySo
tl;dr version: The comment is spiteful, the intention likely isn’t.
Jenny Islander
Is the comment spiteful, or is it tired?
I have longed for some people to fall into comas or even die, because their personal bullshit seemed to require my involvement somehow and they would not take “You are a colossal ass and you exhaust me with your relentless assishness, go away” as an answer. I didn’t hate them. I didn’t want them to be in pain. I just wanted them to STOP, and it seemed to me that they would never stop unless something stopped them.
Now, actually letting that come out of my mouth? Baaaad idea.
HeySo
“Now, actually letting that come out of my mouth? Baaaad idea.”
Exactly? Are you confusing sentiment and statement? The statement is inherently “bad”, regardless of the sentiment behind it. Once we factor in context [ie, Ethan being his friend] we get a rather problematic situation which, again, far exceeds anything we’ve seen Mike himself do within the comic itself.
Rather, if Mike is annoyingly poking people with verbal needles, then Danny just splashed verbal urine into Ethan’s face. Unless Ethan is into that kind of thing, it doesn’t really matter if Danny can attribute it to a cognitive bladder issue or not- it’s still likely to “rain on” their friendship.
a/snow/mous/e
Where is this implication though
thejeff
Mike himself realized while listening to Blaine in the fight that his “constructive purposes” were still harmful. That he sounded like Blaine.
Danny’s comment was really bad, though I’m not sure “spiteful” is the best description. Unlike Mike though, there was no plan behind it, it wasn’t calculated, it wasn’t aimed at manipulating someone or taking advantage of a weakness. It was a just a shitty thing that slipped out and Danny himself is horrified that he said as soon as he heard it come it.
The comparison to Mike pretty much ends with “said a shitty thing”.
HeySo
” it wasn’t calculated, it wasn’t aimed at manipulating someone or taking advantage of a weakness. ”
In other words, unlike Mike, it didn’t have any intelligence behind it. Add in that it was “more shitty” (if only due to context, though I’d argue inherent format as well), and you’ve got a worse outcome.
Nevermind that a friend who could justify or benefit me with their negativity would be much more preferrable to me than someone who just says mindless nasty things [towards one of my best friends and lover, no less] out of the blue, within one of the worst contexts possible.
Again, Danny can justify the sentiment all he wants- much like Mike can with his comments- but once we analyze the comments themselves, Danny clearly just crossed a line (that Mike has yet to have crossed).
HeySo
” though I’m not sure “spiteful” is the best description ”
When a comment is spiteful, it holds to a structure which gives a clear intent of being rude/offensive, hurtful, aggravating, or malicious, and such comments are most strongly characterized as being spiteful when presented in a petty manner.
When an intent is spiteful, the same holds true internally, but the comment itself may be far more subtle than a a spiteful comment, meaning that it’s possible to have a spiteful intent without a spiteful comment [thanks to subtext].
Once again, this isn’t about sentiment, so let’s focus on the comment itself: Something which reads as “I hope they never wake up” strikes me as being extremely petty, and with having a rather clear intent to be offensive, rude, or hurtful.
If you’ve got a better word, please do recommend it, but this is pretty much exactly what “spiteful” is generally associated with [at least, by definition and by my personal experiences] and, at the very least, is going to be similar enough to whichever word one eventually goes with that there’s a clear association of intention, meaning that there’s no basis for vocabulary correction [as there woud be if a given phrasing is confusing or misleading as to a writer’s actual intention].
I keep just saying “this is a mindblowingly awful thing to say, will be interpreted extremely badly by a typical mindset given its structure”, and I’m really confused as to why anyone would argue against that. Rather, anyone who would most certainly would not be someone I’d want to be friends or even acquaintances with.. that sounds like a rather toxic framework by which to be interacting with others.
Yumi
“I keep just saying “this is a mindblowingly awful thing to say, will be interpreted extremely badly by a typical mindset given its structure”, and I’m really confused as to why anyone would argue against that.”
I agree with this phrasing of what you’re trying to say. People clearly feel differently about what the term “spiteful” conveys. As to some of your other points:
“In other words, unlike Mike, it didn’t have any intelligence behind it”– or, unlike Mike, it was an accident. I think it makes sense that many people (such as those in the audience) would be more forgiving of an accident than intentional cruelty.
There’s also Danny’s immediate reaction of “Oh shit, bad bad bad” that probably wins him sympathy here (from the readers). Accidentally saying something you wish you hadn’t and the immediate regret is relatable to many people.
“this is pretty much exactly what “spiteful” is generally associated with [at least, by definition and by my personal experiences]”– a basic definition of “spiteful” is “showing or caused by malice.” A basic definition of “malice” is “the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.” So for me, based on definition and experience, something can be hurtful without being spiteful, and that’s where I’d put this comment. Yes, because “sentiment,” because yes, sentiment matters to the accuracy of the word.
HeySo
For the purpose of spiteful, malice is just considered a shorthand for the “rude/offensive, hurtful, aggravating, or malicious” I detailed above. I already detailed the distinction between statement [ie, reading comprehension] and sentiment [ie, concious will] above.
As I already noted, a statement can be spiteful even if the intent is not, and a statement may not read as spiteful even if the intent was for it to be such. Note also that spiteful is characterized by pettiness and ill will, while malice (on its own) is generally a word less associated with pettiness.
Again, if you can find another word that fits better [for the statement, we’re ignoring sentiment for this discussion], shoot for it, I’m all ears. Malice is definitely off the table, though. 🙂
Vocabulary discussion aside, I’m fully aware the intelligence vs foolishness is going to be subjective. But the very fact that it is was part of my point, in that we can’t really say Danny’s statement [again, statement, not sentiment or intent! ..though given the next comic, that doesn’t seem to be all that great, either] is less harmful or more excusable than anything Mike has ever said.
Which definitely gives the statement a sort of hypocritical vibe, given that it was both unnecessary and uncalled for [there’s nothing hypocritical about feeling aggravated, upset, disdainful, petty/spiteful, or so forth towards someone one is incompatible with, but this clearly goes beyond basic reactionary dislike and straight into active hostility.
Though one could argue that’s due to the phrasing (which humans can easily fumble with, relative to their intentions), as ‘I’d personally be glad to be free of Mike for a while’ carries much the same meaning, but has a rather different tone. Though even that would be inappropriate given the context].
HeySo
” or, unlike Mike, it was an accident.”
Again, that’s sentiment not statement. I’m just approaching reading comprehension/Ethan’s reaction. Never once focused on Danny’s underlying psyche, except as a response to others bringing it up. ^.^
Yumi
I disagree with your understanding of the word “spiteful.” I think others do as well. I also think you’re setting a lot of rules for people to engage in discussion with you without allowing for people to disagree with those rules.
thejeff
It’s not out-Miking Mike. It’s a horrible thing to say, but it’s not at all a Mike thing to say. This isn’t aimed at anyone, it’s not targeting a weakness, it’s just a stupid passing thought blurted out in Danny’s confusion. Which we saw precedent for yesterday.
TachyonCode
Danny can still do a Dan-pirouette into a millenialist standby, a-la “I meant, things really suck right now anyway, is a coma really that bad by comparison?”
But he might still wind up with one foot in his mouth. Hm…
ego
but that was what he was hoping for, amiright?
Miri
I think the “save” is “if he spends longer in the coma then he doesn’t need to deal with the pain of his broken bones, right?”
Needfuldoer
It certainly has been a while since we got a new Danning of Age.
Doctor_Who
Danny put his foot in his mouth so hard that the force of the kick breached dimensional walls and sent him to the Phantom Zone.
MK15
…aaand this.
Sarah Lea
I…completely agree that this is a stupid thing to say and a terrible thing to think…
I just find it surprising it’s being so broadly condemned (granted, in the first 20 minutes of comments), given it seems a fair bit of the commentariate expressed similar sentiments throughout much of the last chapter as well as the first strips confirming Mike’s coma status. Feels…jarring.
Crimsonstorm
I mean, it’s complicated, and probably partly just different people making the comments. But I do think there is a difference in judgement about how real people talk about fictional characters, vs how a (fictional) person talks about another person. Like, me saying “hopefully Mike doesn’t wake up” is different than Danny saying that because from Danny’s (fictional) perspective, Mike is a real person. As is Ethan, who is the person likely to be actually “hurt” here.
Regalli
Yeah, it’s kind of like how the Wilcox parents were EXTREMELY deprecating of him during family weekend, not far removed from what comments said about Danny at the time… but that reads dramatically differently and dramatically worse coming from people inhabiting the same universe as him, especially when they’re his PARENTS.
clif
I think that the skew in the comments comes from the fact that we know Ethan has feelings for Mike and Danny doesn’t. How dare he act based on things he has no way of knowing. At this point, blaming Danny for what he doesn’t know is a time honored tradition. Don’t fight it, embrace it.
beige
…Danny is 100% aware Ethan has feelings for Mike. He’s seen them together. He’s heard the stories
the fact he wants mike to stay in a coma is probably strongly related too that
and this isn’t blaming him for ‘something he doesn’t know’ – this is reacting to him telling someone he hopes one of their oldest friend and person they have expressed affection and attraction to before (things danny does know) and who is clearly very, very upset about it…. that he hopes they never wake up?
and even without all the other context, even if he didn’t know all the above, going into a hospital to tell someone visiting soomeone in a coma you hope the person doesn’t wake up? there’s no way thats not fucked up
Shadow Dreamer
I think what’s worth noting here- I don’t think Dan meant to say that out loud. If that last panel there, of immediate ‘what the fuck just came out of my facehole’ is any indication, that was his mouth acting on autopilot- Ethan makes question noise, out comes what’s in head. He’s already trying to keep something else from slipping out- and when you’re trying not to think of elephants, sometimes you get a rhino instead.
Does that make it okay? No. But we shouldn’t attribute malice, where stupidity is the likely answer.
HeySo
^ This.
HeySo
Ugh. Got position-sniped, and the structure of this comment section is a disaster. ^This @beige, not at Shadow.
Rather, @Shadow:
If you’re thinking we’re attributing malice, then I think you’re misinterpreting, since I’m not getting that impression from the comments I’m reading, nor did I intend that with my own comments. People can make mistakes or act poorly without malice.
Heck, one could argue that most drunken mishaps (up to and including abuse) are done without malice- a dark inherent nature akin to malice for some, perhaps [eg, mood disorders], but nothing conciously willful. But even with the jutification that malice wasn’t intended, it doesn’t mean that an action can’t be destructive and poorly-received.
No matter how little malice was involved, we can’t avoid the fact that, as beige so aptly put it: “there’s no way [that behavior isn’t] fucked up”
HeySo
**To be clear, referencing individuals who are abusive/otherwise problematic exclusively while drunk, and even there only intending to indicate that some may perhaps be able to attribute their actions to things other than malice. Others may perhaps just use the alcohol as an excuse.
Just noting this lest anyone interpret some sort of “alcohol-based actions can’t be based in malice” sentiment from that section.
DiDi
I think it’s less about Mike for most people and more that he said it to Ethan. ETHAN. Who despite all the fuckery that Mike was doing… still considered him a good friend. Hell, they were even lovers for a time. And I hear for some people even when it’s mindless sex, it can somehow bring them closer together and further cement a friendship.
Like… you don’t just say that to a person. Especially not a person who clearly has been as this hospital for days to be with said comatose person. It’s more that Dan has probably irrevocably fucked up what little progress of a friendship with Ethan that he had.
Aviana
This exactly.
thejeff
I don’t know. It’s certainly painful for Ethan to hear, but I think you could make a good case for Danny basically being right and maybe this being a time to say it. An intervention, if you will.
Sure, Ethan’s emotionally attached to him, but even Ethan’s acknowledged he’s not at all sure Mike’s really a friend. While sex can cement a relationship, that’s not a good thing if the relationship is abusive, which this one arguably has been. Some time without Mike’s presence might well be the best thing for Ethan, even if this is a horrible way to get it.
Mind you, I don’t think Danny’s actually ready to make that argument and I doubt he was even thinking about it consciously. It also doesn’t take into consideration the revelation Mike had during the fight and how that might change him – which Danny certainly doesn’t know anything about.
Insufficient Data
I’m gonna say when someone is in the hospital outside the person’s room (and the person is in a coma after heroically sacrificing himself for someone’s other best friend), then no, it is really, really not the right time to say it. Even if Ethan genuinely needed an intervention, doing it now would be guaranteed to make him defensive and even more attached to Mike. Also, suggesting that maybe it would be better if Mike didn’t wake up is also a great way to get Ethan defending Mike, so if it was an attempt at an intervention, it would backfire hugely. Honestly, if it was an attempt at an intervention it would be *worse* than whatit actually is, which just is Danny saying something dumb without thinking.
Meagan
I feel the same way, like what, this comments section hates Mike. But it might not be the same people as I don’t keep track. I think people just like criticizing certain characters no matter what they do.
BBCC
I can’t speak for everyone, but here’s my two cents:
Mike is a horrible person to everyone, consistently. Danny’s not obligated to forgive or forget that.
However, wishing serious harm on someone real is not really something I’m generally comfortable with and to Danny, Mike is not only real, he’s saying this to one of Mike’s best friends. I’d be more understanding if this was a horrible thought he said in a moment of emotionality to someone else, but saying it to his best friend? Beyond out of line.
not someone else
We’re not saying it about a real person to their friend’s face… There’s a difference between talking shit about a bad person where it only hurts them (or hurts nobody) vs. where you manage to hit a decent person with the blowback.
Meagan
Sounds two-faced and like a double standard to me.
Jay
Oh shit Danny…
Kyrik Michalowski
Oh Danny, you’ve justed Danned it up like you never have before. How is he going to backpedal out of this one?
Lokitsu
Time for Danny to find a sword so he can fall on it.
Doctor_Who
On a unicycle!
I mean, with the hat and the ukulele, it’s probably only a matter of time before he’s got a unicycle.
Bicycle Bill
Just no bagpipes. There’s a guy in Portland who’s already working that side of the street.
Meet the Unipiper
He Who Abides
TERRORIST!
Needfuldoer
He just leaps into the lion pit at the zoo.
FaerwenofValenwood
DAMNY.
Doctor_Who
DAMNY YOU WILCOX!
Yumi
Oh jeez, the good egg broke all over his face.
TaintedSpud
Welp… time to be hittin’ the old Dusty Trail…
Lia
done dand
y3k
Oh, so this is going to be a cringe week.
Oh boy.
poofdepoof
OMG
poofdepoof
Is it just me or is this the first time Danny has actually messed up anywhere near this bad?
Regalli
His reaction to the Dorothy breakup and ‘stupid Yale’ wasn’t great.
But was it THIS bad? No. No, and at least this time, he recognizes immediately how bad it is.
Doctor_Who
The fact that saying it immediately transported him to the Upside Down was probably a clue.
Regalli
Also true.
I mean the ‘stop being AG’ argument right before his breakup with Amber was also unknowingly more or less advocating someone die, and it was his actual girlfriend, but there he had no realization whatsoever that there WAS a dissociative split and the gap between the two alters was steadily widening as the relationship had been going on, because *gestures to Amber’s Many Sources of Trauma*. So I’m willing to put that as something he had virtually no context for or way of knowing that WAS what he was saying.
Here? Yeah, no, straight to the Upside Down is merited.
He Who Abides
Should we start calling it “his break-up with Amazi-Girl” at this point? I mean, since we’re now 100% sure that Mazi is a wholly different person than Amber at this point.