“Technically, we’re saying she’s secretly one of ours.”
Okay, this bugs me. Not for metatextual reasons–not faulting Willis for anything–but in terms of 1. the text itself and 2. how I expect (and have seen, on Patreon) the commentariat react to it.
Now, it’s possible Ruth means “ours” as in “all three of us”, but her body language makes me doubt that. Which means she means “one of mine and Billie’s, as opposed to one of yours.”
So let’s run through this real quick. Carla is transgender, asexual, and heteromantic.
1) Are Billie and Ruth claiming they think Mary is trans? No.
2) Are Billie and Ruth claiming they think Mary is asexual? No.
3) Are Billie and Ruth claiming they think Mary has a romantic crush on a woman? Yes.
4) Is having romantic feelings for women part of Ruth, Billie, and Carla’s orientation? Yes.
Therefore, are Billie and Ruth arguing Mary is “one of” a group that includes Carla? Yes.
Now, look. If Ruth and Billie think that Mary just wants to fuck Carla, no romantic feelings included, then fine, Ruth’s not saying anything wrong. But Ruth and Billie have not disambiguated whether they think Mary’s feelings are sexual or romantic, likely because for them, sexual and romantic feelings generally overlap.
So. How much of Carla’s whole deal does Ruth know? Ruth knows that Carla is trans, obviously. Is Ruth just saying “she’s one of ours” because, to her, Carla is accusing them of thinking Mary’s transgender? Possibly.
But if Ruth knows that Carla’s asexual, that changes things drastically. Because the broader queer community has a lot bound up in shuffling aces out of queer spaces, and adds some real unintended bite to the phrasing there.
And if Ruth knows that Carla’s homoromantic, than making Carla part of an outgroup is just an unambigiously mean thing to do, and I don’t know why on earth Ruth regards it as any kind of defense of her and Billie’s little thought experiment.
—
Now, I’d like to take a moment to point out that a lot of folks in the Patreon comments used “Carla’s ace!” as a defense. Which, hey, funny, Carla’s asexuality hasn’t come up in Dumbing of Age yet. You could only possibly know that from reading Shortpacked!–which, oh, hey, lookie here, put Ultra Car in a long-term relationship with a woman and had her outright say she’s homoromantic. So yeah.
I think she Ruth meant they were calling Mary a lesbian. Since Carla hasn’t had her orientation outed, as far as I’m aware, they likely assume her to be straight. At least, that’s my interpretation of the whole thing.
It’s also possible that Ruth is assuming Carla is trans but heterosexual; if she isn’t aware of Carla being asexual (and homoromantic), then it’s not unusual for people to assume otherwise since society tends to be heteronormative. Thus, to Ruth, ‘one of yours’ would be that Mary is trans, ‘one of ours’ would be that Mary is attracted to women.
If Ruth does know that Carla is asexual, I wouldn’t be surprised if she was unaware of the distinction between -sexual and -romantic.
Ruth might actually be assuming Carla is straight.
I think the closest Carla has come to saying anything about her own orientation is when she told Ruth that she gets her and Billie because “Girls are super cute. And I should know, cuz I am one.” Which really doesn’t say anything about her own orientation at all.
Personally I think Ruth thought Carla meant ‘transgender’ and that by ‘ours’, Ruth was referring to bisexuals because Mary likely still has an interest in guys as well in this hypothetical which Carla does NOT.
“I think she meant he threatened in public to kill her.”
“Oh.”
In this case, I believe the simplest answer is Ruth and Billie presumed Carla was part of the larger GBTL community. Unfortunately, that’s a bit presumptuous as you should never presume solidarity.
Mr. Bulbmin
Have a jar of cookies, a cat, and the sweetest hay ever for that reference.
yeah, that would make sense: “we’re not claiming she’s homoromantic; we’re claiming she’s biromantic.”
although has Mary actually shown any sign of romantic interest in DoA, even in regard to guys? otherwise there’s no reason to think she couldn’t be homoromantic.
Sam
Sexualities have been said by David Willis to carry over from the past universes and I think she was involved with a guy in one before. I can’t remember if she has ever specifically said so in this universe but her general negative response to queer people previously could have indicated to people that she was attracted to guys so it may be that they are just assuming she is interested in guys to start with and has added to that by being interested in females now too. They’re still assuming to start with though so the reasoning doesn’t have to be perfect anyway.
While I appreciate the depth here and agree that you can find a lot wrong with what Ruth is saying here, I’d also put forth that Ruth is allowed to be wrong. Ruth has a lot of wrong notions and bad ways to deal with things that she’s still working through and if anything this strip is once again reminding us that what Ruth and Billie have hasn’t been healthy since the word “go.”
And just to elaborate here a little, I think this is a big part of why representation beyond tokenism matters. The more queer characters there are in a work, the less burden there is for all of them to express these things in ideal terms. A token character has all the burden of representation placed on them and that’s an impossible standard. When you’ve got such a spectrum of queerness expressed in a work like Dumbing of Age you’ve got room for people to be wrong, to have mistaken ideas, unhealthy notions, and for them to learn by seeing what other people have that works.
Personally I think it’s realistic to say that gay people aren’t always the best trans allies. That they don’t always understand trans issues, and that what they think they know can cause more subtle harm than people who are more overtly transphobic.
Y’know, I didn’t say she wasn’t! I’m totally okay with this strip as it exists, I just wanted to deconstruct it a little. Other folks talk about how and why behavior in this strip is unhealthy all the time and no one’s ever like “why are you saying characters can’t be flawed” so frankly I’m a little taken aback by this reaction.
rectilinearpropagation
I don’t know if you mean just the comment you’re replying to or all of the replies you’re getting so I wanted to clarify that my comment was just floating another possibility, not me insisting that you’re wrong.
I took Ruth’s ‘ours’ to mean just Ruth and Billie’s, or in other words, toxic to those she cares about… but on a second read I’m having trouble pinning down an interpretation.
I think I’m misunderstanding you somehow, but I’m stumped as to how, so I’ll just say: I think Ruth is saying “ours” as in “we’re all into girls”, rather than referencing specific labels. She’s just reminding Carla, “We aren’t straights trying to foist bigotry off on closeted gays. We’re gay, too.”
I’m not saying she’s cool for doing this. She and Billie have the bad shipping goggles on.
I think that Carla’s rant was about people often stating to her that transphobic Bogota are just closeted trans people, and Ruth is saying “technically we think she’s a closeted homo/no/pansexual”, for the sake of that argument. That “ours” assumes Carla is not attracted to females which is while still wrong, somewhat more understandable especially given the ambiguity of the pronoun “ours” and the context.
> Now, it’s possible Ruth means “ours” as in “all three of us”
I am strongly of the opinion that this is the case. In panel 2 where she has her finger up, I am picturing that that finger is going in a circle (albeit there are no action lines to indicate that, but that is nonetheless how I read the action). She’s saying that they’re not disclaiming Mary as Carla’s people, but in fact claiming Mary as Carla’s+Billie’s+Ruth’s people.
She could be saying ‘ours’ as 1 assuming all girls in this onvo are lesbians, 2 knowing or guessing carla isnt a lesbian referring to billie and herself, or 3 being canadian and not knowing exactly why a phrase might be not pc making someone upset for a bullshit reason. Quite likely 1 & 3. Or even more reasons
knowing or guessing carla isnt a lesbian referring to billie and herself
Neither she nor Billie are lesbians, and both of them know it (though Billie prefers eschewing labels, and Ruth isn’t sure where she fits, last she spoke on it, both are bi by word of god, and Walkyverse precedent).
” If Ruth and Billie think that Mary just wants to fuck Carla, no romantic feelings included, then fine, Ruth’s not saying anything wrong. But Ruth and Billie have not disambiguated whether they think Mary’s feelings are sexual or romantic, likely because for them, sexual and romantic feelings generally overlap.”
so if it’s just a physical thing with no emotions involved it’s fine but if it isn’t… what?
… Was that a pun? With, like, a German accent? Because I agree either way, but I can’t help but chuckle at the idea of German Carla just getting exasperated at these losers.
She’s of Dutch lineage, one of the more festive nothern European cultures (I am told).
But, yeah, a flustered German is funny. It still is a decent go-to for laughs, also. And I wish I’d learned enough of the tongue from my great grandma to do it for lulz.
To be fair, I once did the “mean to someone because I like them” thing.
I was six, she was my neighbor’s babysitter, she was pretty, my insides felt all twisty and I didn’t know what to do.
Clearly the answer was be a little tambourine.
338 thoughts on “Secretly”
Ana Chronistic
maybe it’s actually Nega-Mary
see if she’s wearing a weird palette-swapped outfit and talking with a different voice or something
Tenzhi
Let’s not get dangerous, now.
Corlanthis
I see what you did, there.
joe archer
Shouldn’t she have some facial hair, or at least a radically different hairstyle, if she came from Negative Universe?
SgtWadeyWilson
Or sunglasses and a leather jacket? Or inhuman eyes?
Wait… Demon of Fear wore black, Demon of Hope wore white… maybe her world’s like Charmed’s mirror world???
Charie Spencer
Now I know that if I ever get a shot at a commission, it’s going to be Mary with an alternate Spock goatee.
Michael Steamweed
And gold sash.
N0083rp00F
Why not a wide brimmed hat and a cape?
Shade
If she is Nega-Mary that’s probably an improvement. Lets not look a gift horse in the mouth.
Screwball
Who’s to say Evil Mary isn’t the actual Nega-Mary? That the nice one’s finally free? Poasibility…?
Aeron
Anti-Mary. Sooner or later Anti-Joyce shows up and we have a good old-fashioned It’s Walky showdown.
I can dream.
Wack'd
“Technically, we’re saying she’s secretly one of ours.”
Okay, this bugs me. Not for metatextual reasons–not faulting Willis for anything–but in terms of 1. the text itself and 2. how I expect (and have seen, on Patreon) the commentariat react to it.
Now, it’s possible Ruth means “ours” as in “all three of us”, but her body language makes me doubt that. Which means she means “one of mine and Billie’s, as opposed to one of yours.”
So let’s run through this real quick. Carla is transgender, asexual, and heteromantic.
1) Are Billie and Ruth claiming they think Mary is trans? No.
2) Are Billie and Ruth claiming they think Mary is asexual? No.
3) Are Billie and Ruth claiming they think Mary has a romantic crush on a woman? Yes.
4) Is having romantic feelings for women part of Ruth, Billie, and Carla’s orientation? Yes.
Therefore, are Billie and Ruth arguing Mary is “one of” a group that includes Carla? Yes.
Now, look. If Ruth and Billie think that Mary just wants to fuck Carla, no romantic feelings included, then fine, Ruth’s not saying anything wrong. But Ruth and Billie have not disambiguated whether they think Mary’s feelings are sexual or romantic, likely because for them, sexual and romantic feelings generally overlap.
So. How much of Carla’s whole deal does Ruth know? Ruth knows that Carla is trans, obviously. Is Ruth just saying “she’s one of ours” because, to her, Carla is accusing them of thinking Mary’s transgender? Possibly.
But if Ruth knows that Carla’s asexual, that changes things drastically. Because the broader queer community has a lot bound up in shuffling aces out of queer spaces, and adds some real unintended bite to the phrasing there.
And if Ruth knows that Carla’s homoromantic, than making Carla part of an outgroup is just an unambigiously mean thing to do, and I don’t know why on earth Ruth regards it as any kind of defense of her and Billie’s little thought experiment.
—
Now, I’d like to take a moment to point out that a lot of folks in the Patreon comments used “Carla’s ace!” as a defense. Which, hey, funny, Carla’s asexuality hasn’t come up in Dumbing of Age yet. You could only possibly know that from reading Shortpacked!–which, oh, hey, lookie here, put Ultra Car in a long-term relationship with a woman and had her outright say she’s homoromantic. So yeah.
Flint
I think she Ruth meant they were calling Mary a lesbian. Since Carla hasn’t had her orientation outed, as far as I’m aware, they likely assume her to be straight. At least, that’s my interpretation of the whole thing.
AgentKeen
It’s also possible that Ruth is assuming Carla is trans but heterosexual; if she isn’t aware of Carla being asexual (and homoromantic), then it’s not unusual for people to assume otherwise since society tends to be heteronormative. Thus, to Ruth, ‘one of yours’ would be that Mary is trans, ‘one of ours’ would be that Mary is attracted to women.
If Ruth does know that Carla is asexual, I wouldn’t be surprised if she was unaware of the distinction between -sexual and -romantic.
rectilinearpropagation
Ruth might actually be assuming Carla is straight.
I think the closest Carla has come to saying anything about her own orientation is when she told Ruth that she gets her and Billie because “Girls are super cute. And I should know, cuz I am one.” Which really doesn’t say anything about her own orientation at all.
Sam
Personally I think Ruth thought Carla meant ‘transgender’ and that by ‘ours’, Ruth was referring to bisexuals because Mary likely still has an interest in guys as well in this hypothetical which Carla does NOT.
C.T Phipps
“Why would he want to kill her in public.”
“I think she meant he threatened in public to kill her.”
“Oh.”
In this case, I believe the simplest answer is Ruth and Billie presumed Carla was part of the larger GBTL community. Unfortunately, that’s a bit presumptuous as you should never presume solidarity.
Mr. Bulbmin
Have a jar of cookies, a cat, and the sweetest hay ever for that reference.
Mr. Bulbmin
*hat
Scheiße.
C.T Phipps
My wife doesn’t love Clue. I do not understand how anyone could not.
coru
I’m so sorry to hear that. I can recommend a good divorce lawyer if you’d like.
JasonAW3
I prefer the cat to the hat.
So how about that?
Sam
At least someone understood that.
Arian
Sam, that’s how I read it too.
a/snow mous/e
yeah, that would make sense: “we’re not claiming she’s homoromantic; we’re claiming she’s biromantic.”
although has Mary actually shown any sign of romantic interest in DoA, even in regard to guys? otherwise there’s no reason to think she couldn’t be homoromantic.
Sam
Sexualities have been said by David Willis to carry over from the past universes and I think she was involved with a guy in one before. I can’t remember if she has ever specifically said so in this universe but her general negative response to queer people previously could have indicated to people that she was attracted to guys so it may be that they are just assuming she is interested in guys to start with and has added to that by being interested in females now too. They’re still assuming to start with though so the reasoning doesn’t have to be perfect anyway.
Tenzhi
Sometimes banter is just banter.
Rosicrucian
While I appreciate the depth here and agree that you can find a lot wrong with what Ruth is saying here, I’d also put forth that Ruth is allowed to be wrong. Ruth has a lot of wrong notions and bad ways to deal with things that she’s still working through and if anything this strip is once again reminding us that what Ruth and Billie have hasn’t been healthy since the word “go.”
Rosicrucian
And just to elaborate here a little, I think this is a big part of why representation beyond tokenism matters. The more queer characters there are in a work, the less burden there is for all of them to express these things in ideal terms. A token character has all the burden of representation placed on them and that’s an impossible standard. When you’ve got such a spectrum of queerness expressed in a work like Dumbing of Age you’ve got room for people to be wrong, to have mistaken ideas, unhealthy notions, and for them to learn by seeing what other people have that works.
Personally I think it’s realistic to say that gay people aren’t always the best trans allies. That they don’t always understand trans issues, and that what they think they know can cause more subtle harm than people who are more overtly transphobic.
Meagan
Yes to this!
davidbreslin101
Especially as Carla is calling Billie and Ruth out on it /in this very strip/.
Wack'd
Y’know, I didn’t say she wasn’t! I’m totally okay with this strip as it exists, I just wanted to deconstruct it a little. Other folks talk about how and why behavior in this strip is unhealthy all the time and no one’s ever like “why are you saying characters can’t be flawed” so frankly I’m a little taken aback by this reaction.
rectilinearpropagation
I don’t know if you mean just the comment you’re replying to or all of the replies you’re getting so I wanted to clarify that my comment was just floating another possibility, not me insisting that you’re wrong.
pumacatrun2
I took Carla’s comment as “She must be secretly be one of you LGBTIQ people” basically personally.
SgtWadeyWilson
I took Ruth’s ‘ours’ to mean just Ruth and Billie’s, or in other words, toxic to those she cares about… but on a second read I’m having trouble pinning down an interpretation.
Jerach
After reading it a second time I’m actually pretty sure that’s what they meant and it’s not a sexuality thing at all.
Gecko
yeah, I took “ours” to mean something like “people who act on their attraction by fighting / bullying”.
but I am a little uncertain.
Sina
That’s also how I read it. I took “secretly one of ours” as “someone who gets off on conflict,” which is actually a fair description for Mary.
Goblin Scribe
Wait, I’m confused. Carla’s not heteromantic. She’s homoromantic, isn’t she?
Goblin Scribe
I think I’m misunderstanding you somehow, but I’m stumped as to how, so I’ll just say: I think Ruth is saying “ours” as in “we’re all into girls”, rather than referencing specific labels. She’s just reminding Carla, “We aren’t straights trying to foist bigotry off on closeted gays. We’re gay, too.”
I’m not saying she’s cool for doing this. She and Billie have the bad shipping goggles on.
Hrovitnir
This is also how I read it!
Kamino Neko
That’s how it came off to me, too.
Benwhoski
Yeah, this is how I read it as Ruth clarifying that she and Billie aren’t straight, and are therefore not talking about LGBTQA from the outside.
ditrysia
I think that Carla’s rant was about people often stating to her that transphobic Bogota are just closeted trans people, and Ruth is saying “technically we think she’s a closeted homo/no/pansexual”, for the sake of that argument. That “ours” assumes Carla is not attracted to females which is while still wrong, somewhat more understandable especially given the ambiguity of the pronoun “ours” and the context.
Needfuldoer
That’s how I read it. Carla’s citing past experience, and in that context “yours” sounds like a singular possessive to me.
Tan
> Now, it’s possible Ruth means “ours” as in “all three of us”
I am strongly of the opinion that this is the case. In panel 2 where she has her finger up, I am picturing that that finger is going in a circle (albeit there are no action lines to indicate that, but that is nonetheless how I read the action). She’s saying that they’re not disclaiming Mary as Carla’s people, but in fact claiming Mary as Carla’s+Billie’s+Ruth’s people.
I even more strongly disagree with all responses here that suggest that Ruth thinks Carla’s straight, on the basis that Carla has been -super- up-front about being on Team Girl-Love. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/spilled/
Showler
Perhaps “ours” referred to her, Billie and us forumites and meant people who love Carla.
Egg
I read that body language as “hey, uh, also queer here, hello?”
Elisto
I did too, especially since Carla responds to that with saying they’re new and so they don’t understand some things.
arjay2813
She could be saying ‘ours’ as 1 assuming all girls in this onvo are lesbians, 2 knowing or guessing carla isnt a lesbian referring to billie and herself, or 3 being canadian and not knowing exactly why a phrase might be not pc making someone upset for a bullshit reason. Quite likely 1 & 3. Or even more reasons
Kamino Neko
Neither she nor Billie are lesbians, and both of them know it (though Billie prefers eschewing labels, and Ruth isn’t sure where she fits, last she spoke on it, both are bi by word of god, and Walkyverse precedent).
Vivid Grim
” If Ruth and Billie think that Mary just wants to fuck Carla, no romantic feelings included, then fine, Ruth’s not saying anything wrong. But Ruth and Billie have not disambiguated whether they think Mary’s feelings are sexual or romantic, likely because for them, sexual and romantic feelings generally overlap.”
so if it’s just a physical thing with no emotions involved it’s fine but if it isn’t… what?
Emperor Daniel
You tell ’em, Carla.
Joy
yeah im so dang tired of cis nonsense,
TheGrammarLegionary
… Was that a pun? With, like, a German accent? Because I agree either way, but I can’t help but chuckle at the idea of German Carla just getting exasperated at these losers.
ValdVin
She’s of Dutch lineage, one of the more festive nothern European cultures (I am told).
But, yeah, a flustered German is funny. It still is a decent go-to for laughs, also. And I wish I’d learned enough of the tongue from my great grandma to do it for lulz.
a/snow mous/e
if it wasn’t a pun, i guess it is now :p
Travestyhat
Carla is an honored sister and speaks for all of us. Also rollerskates. She speaks for rollerskates, too.
some guy
carla is the rolax, she speaks for the wheels!
miados
this is interesting.
Miguel
Ohh, about that Carla…..
boop
Carla continues to be the angry awesome voice of wisdom
Just Me
Does Mary know about Carla? That could make a difference.
Wack'd
Mary definitely knows Carla’s trans. Jury’s out on the asexuality and homoromanticism.
Amias
Mary definitely knows about Carla. There was a whole storyline about Mary being shitty to her about it.
Kinoko
Mary even said she was leading Carla “to the boys’ wing where [she] belong[s]”, which is some MAJORLY douchey hate speech. >:(
Shade
She also dropped a bit of a hint to a lot of the dorm during the ding dong bandit story line.
Yumi
To be fair, I once did the “mean to someone because I like them” thing.
I was six, she was my neighbor’s babysitter, she was pretty, my insides felt all twisty and I didn’t know what to do.
Clearly the answer was be a little tambourine.
Doctor_Who
Did the website filter do that? Is it now replacing curse words with different instruments, not just the one. Lemme try.
*ahem*. Glockenspiel!
…Huh.
Wack'd
See I assumed it was tambourine because you usually hit them against your body for sounds.
Yumi
It was tambourine just to get even further away from the gendered connotations.