Joyce: “You know Joe, I figure there’s a high chance you’ve fantasized about exactly this occurring, so let’s take it as a valuable lesson in being careful what you wish for.”
I laughed and then immediately felt terrible. Joe has been making so much progress and I wanna see him happy. But this is framework for crashing and whoring 🙁
Joyce and Dorothy better save the Universe with the power of love, is all I’m saying.
it’s called dumbing of age for a reason. I honestly can’t say i expected willis to touch on this possible arc but now that its happening i’m so glad he did but also terrified.
This is the kind of reaction we NEEDED to see from Joyce. The realization that her actions have very real consequences that are going to seriously damage people she cares about, people who have cared for and supported her at every point.
This is going to be messy, and I hope it’s SUPER uncomfortable for Joyce. It needs to be to reinforce that it was wrong.
As much as this whole arc is miserable to read because it feels like a high speed trail collision between two different character arcs that were going in opposite directions, I feel some confusion in response to the statement “it was wrong”. Like… the kissing can definitely be framed as cheating, if the characters want to decide that it is cheating. But I don’t think the actual kissing, the part Joyce had willful control over, is the part which is devastating to Joe. That part that is devastating to Joe is that Joyce carried on an intense emotional relationship with Dorothy for many months that preceded her relationship with him and that she has been apparently totally in denial about the romantic aspect of all this time. But that doesn’t feel like a moral failing deserving of punishment to me? That just feels like being a dumb young adult with a lack of self awareness and way too much mental baggage about discounting the possibility of queer romance.
I mean, Joyce could still choose not to break of with Joe at this point. But I don’t think either of them will be served by staying in a relationship together if Joyce is now constantly aware of her desire for Dorothy and pining for her all the time.
To put this in other terms: Yes, it should be super uncomfortable for Joyce, but that’s not because it’s a punishment for misdeeds. It should be super uncomfortable for her because she’s a decent person and decent people should be able to tell when they are ripping someone else’s heart out. That discomfort comes from *within*. That is not some external moral force punishing Joyce, that is Joyce’s own conscience making her feel bad because she agrees with it.
Or- and this just occurred to me- do you mean instead that it needs to be uncomfortable in the sense that convenient and contrived narrative events should not clean up the mess Joyce is making so she doesn’t need to make herself feel bad? Like Joe being stoic about the breakup, and then falling backwards into another ideal relationship immediately, so that Joyce doesn’t have to see him unhappy and feel guilty. The kind of story twist that creates the impression for the reader that life situations like this will just work out on their own, so that we need not worry about inadvertent consequences on others of our lack of awareness or forethought in making major life decisions, or that some people never get their happy ending and that’s not okay?
Olofa
Excellent analysis 10/10 would recommend
not someone else
This yes.
Adam Black
The problem with this IS, Joe/ Sarah was a great Ship in roomies.
And he’s more Sarah’s type, now and physically.
And it would suck narratively for Willis to casually rip up all the new ships he’s got the audience emotionally invested in ( again) prematurely.
Joyce / Dorothy ought to be amazing, it’s just unsatisfying to prematurely rip up Joe Joyce. ( Another month or two to climax would be fine),
And Sarah just found happiness for once. Of course temporary but it’s reads better to let it develop and deepen before ripping it to shreds.
Like let Leslie mess up and sleep with Conquest. Or a 3some with Robin.
Danny with Sayid. Spread this messiness around instead of musical chairs.
100% agree. I’m uncomfortable with people calling what she’s done with Dorothy “wrong” (if, indeed they’re talking in moral terms condemning her actions). This is hard. This is life. She’s a good person who doesn’t want to hurt others, and she went into this situation with Joe in good faith, but she has to be true to herself now with the self-knowledge she has now. Making the right choices for herself means she can’t just make everyone happy at her own expense.
Maybe Joyce and Dorothy will crash and burn; maybe Joe would’ve been a good future for her. Maybe she’ll always regret whatever path she doesn’t follow here. That doesn’t make her “wrong” then… she doesn’t have access to Willis’ buffer to know how this all goes in the future.
This whole storyline is really hitting close to home for me. I remember the doomed realization that I had been in a relationship that wasn’t right for me, and I’d been there for too long and I was going to have to end it, even in that meant hurting people I cared about. The pit-in-the-stomach feeling of going to go have the awful, inevitable conversation. It sucks hard. You could say I was a bad person. Even if I thought it was for a good reason. Even if I look back, understanding how precious a thing trust is and understanding the pain that breaking it can cause, and coming out on the other side of that with a clarity about who I was and a real understanding of the power individuals have and the responsibility we have to each other. I think it’s how someone grows up. At least, that’s what I tell myself.
Lumino
For whatever it may be worth, I’m not angry at Joyce for breaking up with Joe. That’s the mature, adult thing to do. What I’m mad at her for are her actions this story line.
By her OWN ADMISSION, sex is ‘somebody you love making you orgasm’, which she then immediately realized qualified to Dorothy. The next thing she did was demand they go do it again. By her own admission, that is cheating. She’s dating one individual while having sex with another without prior consent/permission from the person she’s dating.
And she can’t even hide behind the excuse that she was afraid Joe would judge her. Joe has been nothing but patient, supportive and understanding of her various hang ups. It’s one thing to make mistakes while in a relationship due to ignorance and hormones. Joyce acknowledged that something would make her unfaithful while she was in a stable state of mind and then INSTANTLY went to do it and didn’t give it a second thought all day.
That is why I say this needs to be painful for her, because that kind of behavior is NOT ok.
Meagan
Oof, I had forgotten about that part because they didn’t get to go through with it. But yeah that’s messed up.
Strain Of Thought
@Lumino Yeah okay that’s 100% valid. Joyce was definitely *attempting* to cheat, by a definition she had just made up herself, in a flurry of horny realization. She absolutely needed to slam on the brakes at that point and have a serious talk with Dorothy about both of their feelings before she made any more major decisions, and instead it turned into a gag about “let’s go do laundry” that was mercifully aborted with another smash cut gag before it had a chance to get any more horrifying. That incident had slipped my mind as well. The girl is not okay.
Kyulen
A lot of people seem to have forgotten that Joyce defined sex that way, and shortly after she went with Dorothy to the laundry room fully intending to do a thing she considers sex, while still dating Joe. And that only got stopped because a bunch of other students were in the room when they got there. She’s already tried to cheat on Joe once before the big kiss at the protest.
thejeff
It’s the weirdest thing though and it’s really hard to get a feel for her mental state then, since right before suggesting that, she said that what she’d almost done the night before was just “surplus misdirected horny”.
Was she still in denial somehow? Or just knowingly lying?
Formerly Glenn
I’m what universe is kissing not a form of cheating, and in what universe is cheating not “wrong”?
Keep in mind that if all parties consent, make outs with third parties to the relation are not cheating because there is consent.
thejeff
It’s technically cheating, but a few kisses and then going to break up is about as mild as cheating gets.
Strawb
I mean something can be wrong and an understandable mistake at the same time. My last partner cheated on me at the end of our relationship when he could have just broken up with me. I get what happened and I forgave him (it was a situation that ended when they kissed once, not like a month’s long secret relationship) but he still did something wrong. I don’t think it’s wrong (hardy har) to point that out.
Sarah Lea
I really appreciate your analysis here…but it does bring me to question something that seems…kind of assumed, either one way or another, by most of the commentors:
If the issue is that Joyce is romantically (and clearly, vocally physically/sexually) attracted to Joe…
…and Joyce is also romantically (although it’s not as clear to me about physically/sexually, probably due to being somewhere in the ace/demi zone [and very het] myself) attracted to Dorothy…
Which of those two is the “wrong” attraction? Which is the “cheating”? Who has “first claim” on Joyce’s affection (to be “cheated against”), if either?
In both cases, it seems pretty clear that Joyce was dealing with all kinds of layers of repression about her attraction(s)…are some of those more “excusing/excusable” than others? Does her sexual repression give her more/less license to make mistakes under partial ignorance than her romantic-orientation repression?
To be clear, I have absolutely no answers here myself. Just…a lot of questions and curiosity. Also to be clear, I can absolutely understand the argument (while believing it’s by no means universal) that Joyce kissing Dorothy could constitute cheating. But the emotional/attraction stuff seems…much less potentially clear cut.
thejeff
Who had “first claim”?
The one she agreed to date. I’m not even sure what the argument is otherwise.
Having a crush on someone, even for a long time, doesn’t give anyone a claim unless they act on it.
Your comment is sooooooooo much funnier when we remember Joyce in DOA is the assigned Author Avatar.
Damn you, WiJoyce.
Adam Black
This wAs to luminos “This is the kind of reaction we NEEDED to see from Joyce. The realization that her actions have very real consequences that are going to seriously damage people she cares about, people who have cared for and supported her at every point. “
Y’all are projecting a lot of your own biased judgement on the morality of what’s happening, and allowing a puritanical skewing of a social construct dictate your response and judgement of Joyce and Dorothy. Hoping for someone’s misery, especially when their “crime” is having LOVE for people, is just a disgusting layer of icing on a religiously judgemental cake.
Yeah, Joe and Walky may be hurt, or they may be chill, but also, neither of them can give Joyce or Dorothy what Joyce and Dorothy give each other. They all love differently, and that doesn’t meant any of them are doing it wrong. Lastly, I don’t recall any of them having conversations stipulating that they were exclusive, but even if they had Joyce and Dorothy are heading back to Joe and Walky directly to disclose what happened and how their feelings aren’t fitting within that box.
Life is messy, and this will be too, but they aren’t being horrible people. Don’t let residual christian extremism bait you into relishing hatred. It’s not a good look.
Astariel
A thousand times this.
Li
Mm, it should go both ways, though.
Which, yes, anyone who’s simultaneously being viciously judgmental about other commenters and asserting that what we like in fiction must reflect our real-life morals, while ALSO loudly fantasizing about awful things happening to fictional characters… by their own logic, that’s bad!
But by our logic, where it’s fine to hope for fictional mess and tears, it needs to also be fine to hope for fictional comeuppance and misery.
Yes, some of the things people have said they hope happen to Joyce and Dorothy kind of creep me out, too. Especially when it comes from someone who’s been insisting that I view Joe and Walky as real people with feelings instead of characters.
But isn’t the whole point of “our side” that… it’s okay to want creepy stuff in fiction? And that whether or not something creeps us out isn’t a solid basis for morality?
The standard should still be “does this harm real people”, and the answer should still be “feeling creeped out isn’t a form of harm”.
Formerly Glenn
Because cheating is wrong you doofus.
The order you do things in is important.
If you want to make out with someone besides your partner, you either need their approval first or you need to break up. It’s not just a moral puritanical thing, it’s a socially responsible thing.
In Classic Greek society, that’s not much of an indicator. Aristotle tutored Alexander III, who had three great loves, none of them women, but quite definitely got married.
pretty much as long as you were not the one being penetrated it really didn’t matter, hell married sex was expected to be with the woman face down so she looked more masculine.
There have been more than a few comments from Walky along these lines, really. I think he especially noticed Asher is hot, maybe also Jacob (though he might also have just been feeling super intimidated by Lucy’s rebound “upgrade”). Part of me expects that SOME of his reaction to Dorothy’s bi awakening — perhaps one of the comedy beats that Walky especially is prone to in the middle of tense moments — will involve some sort of “oh is that a thing we’re supposed to announce? Me too, then. ‘Cept without the cheating on you part.”
Jon
Fun fact – not everyone in a polycule has to fuck everyone else. My wife’s other husband and I are both straight.
Other hand, if it turns out that Joe and Walky are both into it…
Proxiehunter
Something I’ve often brought up myself when people point out Dorothy’s dislike of Joe. I just think it would be funny to increase the degree to which the friendship’s smoochy chart is an ouroboros. And it’s a good opportunity for Walky to explore his almost as obvious as Joyce’s was bisexuality. Not sure about Joe being down for it though which is why it’s mostly a joke when I bring up Joe and Walky.
Now, Walky, Ethan, Asher might have some legs . . .
Corey C.
Weren’t Joe and Walky married at one point? I mean, not literally, but during their Gender Studies class they were assigned as a married couple and apparently did pretty good in balancing their marital duties. In fact, their assigned marriage was probably the most stable relationship Walky was ever in in this series.
Steamweed
A slippery slope that has prepared the way for them to enter into the polycule.
GreyICE
It was completely dysfunctional so… yep, standard Walky relationship.
There are some guys who are always in and out of relationships, and there’s a reason.
I was unsure about Team Poly but this strip has pretty convincingly persuaded me that, if she can find the words to vocalize it, joyce might be interested in it. I don’t know if Joe would be as well, given the circumstances. The sticking point, though, is that Dorothy absolutely would not be open to it. She is far too possessive of Joyce for that, and Joe is the last person she would want to be sharing Joyce’s affections with.
Nymph
Yay! Welcome to Team Polyamory!
Dot
Haha, I just think it’s something Joyce would like. As I said, I’m not sure the other people in the equation would be as open to.
I can think of a good reason for each one of them, because this is my true ship, but I definitely agree that Joyce seems interested.
Proxiehunter
I think Dorothy would struggle with jealousy, but I also think she would rather Joyce date her and Joe than Joyce date Joe and not her.
Dot
I think she would rather Joyce date her and nobody else.
Li
Well, yes, but Proxiehunter was assuming that wasn’t an option in the hypothetical.
Li
(Also? Maybe not.
The first time I attempted to date anyone, it was because a bi woman I knew had just gotten engaged to a man and she wanted to date another woman first, something she’d never done before either.
It appealed to me specifically because I was very very nervous and new at this whole thing, and the whole scenario took the pressure off in some ways.
It didn’t work out! But I can imagine Dorothy doing the same sort of mental math where she thinks maybe having Joyce also date someone else who already makes her happy(?) might make this first-time-with-another-woman scenario less intimidating.)
Adeptus
Dorothy learning to get over her jealousy would be very good for her.
Reaver
Plus think of how her mom would react 😀
Li
My fingers are SO CROSSED.
I’m okay with heartbreak and confusion and miscommunication in the meantime but GOSH do I want the poly at least someday with these three. I’ve felt like they give Joyce different things, both good, and I reallly liked what I saw as the start of a Joe-Dorothy friendship in their last conversation…
Mess and chaos and miscommunications and all of that but… ultimately happy??? Maybe? Please?
592 thoughts on “Started”
Reaver
*monches popcorn*
NGPZ
??
Pocky
I’ll bring the drinks
yet_one_more_idiot
Feelin’ hungry. Anyone got hotdogs? ^^
NGPZ
^^ I do!
?
Doctor_Who
Joyce: “You know Joe, I figure there’s a high chance you’ve fantasized about exactly this occurring, so let’s take it as a valuable lesson in being careful what you wish for.”
Poot-pootington
I laughed and then immediately felt terrible. Joe has been making so much progress and I wanna see him happy. But this is framework for crashing and whoring 🙁
Joyce and Dorothy better save the Universe with the power of love, is all I’m saying.
Nurts2That
Part of me is assuming that now he’s gonna get together with some other lady who isn’t a fan of him… That gym workout might be foreshadowing.
achallenger
it’s called dumbing of age for a reason. I honestly can’t say i expected willis to touch on this possible arc but now that its happening i’m so glad he did but also terrified.
GreyICE
Hah!
That would be amazing.
Isalis
Old Joe would have been all for that. Current Joe however…
Dot
Kind of hitting her all at once, huh
Rose by Any other Name
Agatha spitting facts.
Lumino
This is the kind of reaction we NEEDED to see from Joyce. The realization that her actions have very real consequences that are going to seriously damage people she cares about, people who have cared for and supported her at every point.
This is going to be messy, and I hope it’s SUPER uncomfortable for Joyce. It needs to be to reinforce that it was wrong.
Strain Of Thought
As much as this whole arc is miserable to read because it feels like a high speed trail collision between two different character arcs that were going in opposite directions, I feel some confusion in response to the statement “it was wrong”. Like… the kissing can definitely be framed as cheating, if the characters want to decide that it is cheating. But I don’t think the actual kissing, the part Joyce had willful control over, is the part which is devastating to Joe. That part that is devastating to Joe is that Joyce carried on an intense emotional relationship with Dorothy for many months that preceded her relationship with him and that she has been apparently totally in denial about the romantic aspect of all this time. But that doesn’t feel like a moral failing deserving of punishment to me? That just feels like being a dumb young adult with a lack of self awareness and way too much mental baggage about discounting the possibility of queer romance.
I mean, Joyce could still choose not to break of with Joe at this point. But I don’t think either of them will be served by staying in a relationship together if Joyce is now constantly aware of her desire for Dorothy and pining for her all the time.
To put this in other terms: Yes, it should be super uncomfortable for Joyce, but that’s not because it’s a punishment for misdeeds. It should be super uncomfortable for her because she’s a decent person and decent people should be able to tell when they are ripping someone else’s heart out. That discomfort comes from *within*. That is not some external moral force punishing Joyce, that is Joyce’s own conscience making her feel bad because she agrees with it.
Or- and this just occurred to me- do you mean instead that it needs to be uncomfortable in the sense that convenient and contrived narrative events should not clean up the mess Joyce is making so she doesn’t need to make herself feel bad? Like Joe being stoic about the breakup, and then falling backwards into another ideal relationship immediately, so that Joyce doesn’t have to see him unhappy and feel guilty. The kind of story twist that creates the impression for the reader that life situations like this will just work out on their own, so that we need not worry about inadvertent consequences on others of our lack of awareness or forethought in making major life decisions, or that some people never get their happy ending and that’s not okay?
Olofa
Excellent analysis 10/10 would recommend
not someone else
This yes.
Adam Black
The problem with this IS, Joe/ Sarah was a great Ship in roomies.
And he’s more Sarah’s type, now and physically.
And it would suck narratively for Willis to casually rip up all the new ships he’s got the audience emotionally invested in ( again) prematurely.
Joyce / Dorothy ought to be amazing, it’s just unsatisfying to prematurely rip up Joe Joyce. ( Another month or two to climax would be fine),
And Sarah just found happiness for once. Of course temporary but it’s reads better to let it develop and deepen before ripping it to shreds.
Like let Leslie mess up and sleep with Conquest. Or a 3some with Robin.
Danny with Sayid. Spread this messiness around instead of musical chairs.
That Matt
100% agree. I’m uncomfortable with people calling what she’s done with Dorothy “wrong” (if, indeed they’re talking in moral terms condemning her actions). This is hard. This is life. She’s a good person who doesn’t want to hurt others, and she went into this situation with Joe in good faith, but she has to be true to herself now with the self-knowledge she has now. Making the right choices for herself means she can’t just make everyone happy at her own expense.
Maybe Joyce and Dorothy will crash and burn; maybe Joe would’ve been a good future for her. Maybe she’ll always regret whatever path she doesn’t follow here. That doesn’t make her “wrong” then… she doesn’t have access to Willis’ buffer to know how this all goes in the future.
This whole storyline is really hitting close to home for me. I remember the doomed realization that I had been in a relationship that wasn’t right for me, and I’d been there for too long and I was going to have to end it, even in that meant hurting people I cared about. The pit-in-the-stomach feeling of going to go have the awful, inevitable conversation. It sucks hard. You could say I was a bad person. Even if I thought it was for a good reason. Even if I look back, understanding how precious a thing trust is and understanding the pain that breaking it can cause, and coming out on the other side of that with a clarity about who I was and a real understanding of the power individuals have and the responsibility we have to each other. I think it’s how someone grows up. At least, that’s what I tell myself.
Lumino
For whatever it may be worth, I’m not angry at Joyce for breaking up with Joe. That’s the mature, adult thing to do. What I’m mad at her for are her actions this story line.
By her OWN ADMISSION, sex is ‘somebody you love making you orgasm’, which she then immediately realized qualified to Dorothy. The next thing she did was demand they go do it again. By her own admission, that is cheating. She’s dating one individual while having sex with another without prior consent/permission from the person she’s dating.
And she can’t even hide behind the excuse that she was afraid Joe would judge her. Joe has been nothing but patient, supportive and understanding of her various hang ups. It’s one thing to make mistakes while in a relationship due to ignorance and hormones. Joyce acknowledged that something would make her unfaithful while she was in a stable state of mind and then INSTANTLY went to do it and didn’t give it a second thought all day.
That is why I say this needs to be painful for her, because that kind of behavior is NOT ok.
Meagan
Oof, I had forgotten about that part because they didn’t get to go through with it. But yeah that’s messed up.
Strain Of Thought
@Lumino Yeah okay that’s 100% valid. Joyce was definitely *attempting* to cheat, by a definition she had just made up herself, in a flurry of horny realization. She absolutely needed to slam on the brakes at that point and have a serious talk with Dorothy about both of their feelings before she made any more major decisions, and instead it turned into a gag about “let’s go do laundry” that was mercifully aborted with another smash cut gag before it had a chance to get any more horrifying. That incident had slipped my mind as well. The girl is not okay.
Kyulen
A lot of people seem to have forgotten that Joyce defined sex that way, and shortly after she went with Dorothy to the laundry room fully intending to do a thing she considers sex, while still dating Joe. And that only got stopped because a bunch of other students were in the room when they got there. She’s already tried to cheat on Joe once before the big kiss at the protest.
thejeff
It’s the weirdest thing though and it’s really hard to get a feel for her mental state then, since right before suggesting that, she said that what she’d almost done the night before was just “surplus misdirected horny”.
Was she still in denial somehow? Or just knowingly lying?
Formerly Glenn
I’m what universe is kissing not a form of cheating, and in what universe is cheating not “wrong”?
Keep in mind that if all parties consent, make outs with third parties to the relation are not cheating because there is consent.
thejeff
It’s technically cheating, but a few kisses and then going to break up is about as mild as cheating gets.
Strawb
I mean something can be wrong and an understandable mistake at the same time. My last partner cheated on me at the end of our relationship when he could have just broken up with me. I get what happened and I forgave him (it was a situation that ended when they kissed once, not like a month’s long secret relationship) but he still did something wrong. I don’t think it’s wrong (hardy har) to point that out.
Sarah Lea
I really appreciate your analysis here…but it does bring me to question something that seems…kind of assumed, either one way or another, by most of the commentors:
If the issue is that Joyce is romantically (and clearly, vocally physically/sexually) attracted to Joe…
…and Joyce is also romantically (although it’s not as clear to me about physically/sexually, probably due to being somewhere in the ace/demi zone [and very het] myself) attracted to Dorothy…
Which of those two is the “wrong” attraction? Which is the “cheating”? Who has “first claim” on Joyce’s affection (to be “cheated against”), if either?
In both cases, it seems pretty clear that Joyce was dealing with all kinds of layers of repression about her attraction(s)…are some of those more “excusing/excusable” than others? Does her sexual repression give her more/less license to make mistakes under partial ignorance than her romantic-orientation repression?
To be clear, I have absolutely no answers here myself. Just…a lot of questions and curiosity. Also to be clear, I can absolutely understand the argument (while believing it’s by no means universal) that Joyce kissing Dorothy could constitute cheating. But the emotional/attraction stuff seems…much less potentially clear cut.
thejeff
Who had “first claim”?
The one she agreed to date. I’m not even sure what the argument is otherwise.
Having a crush on someone, even for a long time, doesn’t give anyone a claim unless they act on it.
Twinsword
I agree, but I’m dreading the future. Hello, I’m a Relationship Paladin, and I am feeling very sorry for poor Joe. Walky’s time is coming…
Adam Black
Your comment is sooooooooo much funnier when we remember Joyce in DOA is the assigned Author Avatar.
Damn you, WiJoyce.
Adam Black
This wAs to luminos “This is the kind of reaction we NEEDED to see from Joyce. The realization that her actions have very real consequences that are going to seriously damage people she cares about, people who have cared for and supported her at every point. “
Strain Of Thought
Relationship Paladin, meet Relationship Blood Knight.
Benjamin Geiger
[hijacks the hacked Muzak and plays “One Promise Too Late”]
Decidedly Orthogonal
Y’all are projecting a lot of your own biased judgement on the morality of what’s happening, and allowing a puritanical skewing of a social construct dictate your response and judgement of Joyce and Dorothy. Hoping for someone’s misery, especially when their “crime” is having LOVE for people, is just a disgusting layer of icing on a religiously judgemental cake.
Yeah, Joe and Walky may be hurt, or they may be chill, but also, neither of them can give Joyce or Dorothy what Joyce and Dorothy give each other. They all love differently, and that doesn’t meant any of them are doing it wrong. Lastly, I don’t recall any of them having conversations stipulating that they were exclusive, but even if they had Joyce and Dorothy are heading back to Joe and Walky directly to disclose what happened and how their feelings aren’t fitting within that box.
Life is messy, and this will be too, but they aren’t being horrible people. Don’t let residual christian extremism bait you into relishing hatred. It’s not a good look.
Astariel
A thousand times this.
Li
Mm, it should go both ways, though.
Which, yes, anyone who’s simultaneously being viciously judgmental about other commenters and asserting that what we like in fiction must reflect our real-life morals, while ALSO loudly fantasizing about awful things happening to fictional characters… by their own logic, that’s bad!
But by our logic, where it’s fine to hope for fictional mess and tears, it needs to also be fine to hope for fictional comeuppance and misery.
Yes, some of the things people have said they hope happen to Joyce and Dorothy kind of creep me out, too. Especially when it comes from someone who’s been insisting that I view Joe and Walky as real people with feelings instead of characters.
But isn’t the whole point of “our side” that… it’s okay to want creepy stuff in fiction? And that whether or not something creeps us out isn’t a solid basis for morality?
The standard should still be “does this harm real people”, and the answer should still be “feeling creeped out isn’t a form of harm”.
Formerly Glenn
Because cheating is wrong you doofus.
The order you do things in is important.
If you want to make out with someone besides your partner, you either need their approval first or you need to break up. It’s not just a moral puritanical thing, it’s a socially responsible thing.
Astariel
Ugh, this mix of moralizing and sadism in the comments is really getting gross. Feels very Republican.
Proxiehunter
Re: Hovertext Plato I think. Unless I have the order wrong.
Bonesrental
Yes Aristotle was a student of Plato at his Academy.
BarerMender
Aristotle was also a married man.
Pappenheimer
In Classic Greek society, that’s not much of an indicator. Aristotle tutored Alexander III, who had three great loves, none of them women, but quite definitely got married.
Taffy
Hell, it doesn’t really mean much today, either.
Embe13
pretty much as long as you were not the one being penetrated it really didn’t matter, hell married sex was expected to be with the woman face down so she looked more masculine.
Cimorene
It’s also a The Good Place meme!
ZombieKyrik
If finding out doesn’t break his heart Joe might actually be ok with dating Joyce at the same time Dorothy is dating Joyce.
Will it be that simple? Gods above I wish it would be that simple, but no gods stop the Willis train.
Reaver
Polycules would be the perfect solution! Dorothy and Joe could both date Joyce, and Walky can still date Dorothy and everyone wins!
Proxiehunter
And Joe and Walky can date Joe and Walky.
Reaver
and then Walky could technicality date Joyce!
Laura
Walky seems to be poly-curious, but appears to have no interest in Joyce, though.
Proxiehunter
He’s also bi curious. Or at least curious enough to consider it for free pizza.
Mr D
*Insert Walky’s dad comment about a Fuck Pile here*
deliverything
Here you go:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/mysake/
Steamweed
Dumbing of Age Pornographique: Everyone Gets In A Fuckpile and Gets It Over With
marcus erronius
obligatory “Thank you for inserting the Fuck Pile here”
Azrael
I mean, for free pizza, who wouldn’t at least go to second base?
Li
Also to suggest Ethan grope his ass.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/03-when-it-crumbles/forks/
There have been more than a few comments from Walky along these lines, really. I think he especially noticed Asher is hot, maybe also Jacob (though he might also have just been feeling super intimidated by Lucy’s rebound “upgrade”). Part of me expects that SOME of his reaction to Dorothy’s bi awakening — perhaps one of the comedy beats that Walky especially is prone to in the middle of tense moments — will involve some sort of “oh is that a thing we’re supposed to announce? Me too, then. ‘Cept without the cheating on you part.”
Jon
Fun fact – not everyone in a polycule has to fuck everyone else. My wife’s other husband and I are both straight.
Other hand, if it turns out that Joe and Walky are both into it…
Proxiehunter
Something I’ve often brought up myself when people point out Dorothy’s dislike of Joe. I just think it would be funny to increase the degree to which the friendship’s smoochy chart is an ouroboros. And it’s a good opportunity for Walky to explore his almost as obvious as Joyce’s was bisexuality. Not sure about Joe being down for it though which is why it’s mostly a joke when I bring up Joe and Walky.
Now, Walky, Ethan, Asher might have some legs . . .
Corey C.
Weren’t Joe and Walky married at one point? I mean, not literally, but during their Gender Studies class they were assigned as a married couple and apparently did pretty good in balancing their marital duties. In fact, their assigned marriage was probably the most stable relationship Walky was ever in in this series.
Steamweed
A slippery slope that has prepared the way for them to enter into the polycule.
GreyICE
It was completely dysfunctional so… yep, standard Walky relationship.
There are some guys who are always in and out of relationships, and there’s a reason.
Dot
I was unsure about Team Poly but this strip has pretty convincingly persuaded me that, if she can find the words to vocalize it, joyce might be interested in it. I don’t know if Joe would be as well, given the circumstances. The sticking point, though, is that Dorothy absolutely would not be open to it. She is far too possessive of Joyce for that, and Joe is the last person she would want to be sharing Joyce’s affections with.
Nymph
Yay! Welcome to Team Polyamory!
Dot
Haha, I just think it’s something Joyce would like. As I said, I’m not sure the other people in the equation would be as open to.
NGPZ
one of us! one of us!
Nymph
I can think of a good reason for each one of them, because this is my true ship, but I definitely agree that Joyce seems interested.
Proxiehunter
I think Dorothy would struggle with jealousy, but I also think she would rather Joyce date her and Joe than Joyce date Joe and not her.
Dot
I think she would rather Joyce date her and nobody else.
Li
Well, yes, but Proxiehunter was assuming that wasn’t an option in the hypothetical.
Li
(Also? Maybe not.
The first time I attempted to date anyone, it was because a bi woman I knew had just gotten engaged to a man and she wanted to date another woman first, something she’d never done before either.
It appealed to me specifically because I was very very nervous and new at this whole thing, and the whole scenario took the pressure off in some ways.
It didn’t work out! But I can imagine Dorothy doing the same sort of mental math where she thinks maybe having Joyce also date someone else who already makes her happy(?) might make this first-time-with-another-woman scenario less intimidating.)
Adeptus
Dorothy learning to get over her jealousy would be very good for her.
Reaver
Plus think of how her mom would react 😀
Li
My fingers are SO CROSSED.
I’m okay with heartbreak and confusion and miscommunication in the meantime but GOSH do I want the poly at least someday with these three. I’ve felt like they give Joyce different things, both good, and I reallly liked what I saw as the start of a Joe-Dorothy friendship in their last conversation…
Mess and chaos and miscommunications and all of that but… ultimately happy??? Maybe? Please?