what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not
Ana Chronistic
besides Urban Dictionary? well
Makkabee
“what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not”
The New Century Dictionary (1946 edition) has an index of geographical names at the end so India and Indiana do indeed appear next to each other in that dictionary. Page 2647, I think.
Ooh, someone’s dating themselves with THAT reference!
Kamino Neko
Oi! Take that back! I haven’t dated myself for years! I have a girlfriend who takes care of that, now. >_>
Clif
She dates herself for you?
Kamino Neko
If we’re in the mood for that, sure. >_>
Dakota
What reference are you guys making? I am so confused. T^T
Ana Chronistic
I’m afraid that I’m not sure of
A love there is no cure for
I think I love you
Something something in French*
Though it worries me to say
I’ve never felt this way
Heyyyyyyy
*elevator ding*
(*not the actual line here, in-joke substitute for the part I can’t remember w/o looking it up)
Falling Star
Everything.
Mr.Morningstar
So did you know that from memory or did you look it up
SgtWadeyWilson
The out of date college dictionary I read cover to cover for no good reason when I was about ten had proper nouns, a list of prefixes and suffixes, four alphabets and a whole page about semicolons. I didn’t really take the last one to heart, but that’s beside the point.
Lurlock
Umm, most dictionaries I’ve seen include proper nouns. Not even in a separate section, just right along with the rest of the words.
shazz_smifff
all the dictionaries i read at school had all the rude words underlined until i got to secondary school, then they were highlighted in pink or bright yellow
No, she couldn’t have. As much as I love Jocelyne, she is still a propagator of the infallible patriarchy. It’s how she was raised, not her fault, and she can try to break it, but for now she has shown me she is more or less part of it.
Dave
Literally everyone is raised to be a propagator of patriarchy. Everyone. The implication that Jocelyne does so more than Joyce does (who just yesterday was laying down concepts of a woman’s role in marriage that are patriarchal to the core, and bucked Dorothy’s suggestion that it could be otherwise) by lieu of having been assigned a male gender at birth is kinda gross? Unless you meant something else by this and I’m misreading you, but that’s sort of the implication I’m getting. Sorry in advance if I’m misinterpreting.
Wheelpath
Oh, no, sorry. My fault, I should have been clearer, and you’re right, Joyce is terrible with that stuff, obviously (she’s growing but not great). At least she’s trying (she had to have a lesbian best friend and be held up for it to happen), I don’t see any of that from Jocelyne until now.
It is about gender, but not what Jocelyne was assigned at birth. I meant that there is no way she could’ve stood up to her brother because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing. Plus she’s been uber passive at all points before this, in part due to hiding sure, but you can’t tell me none of it is due to this. She didn’t help her sister because she’s scared and “it isn’t her place, she isn’t allowed to disagree.” She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.
If any of this came across as close-minded or misinformed, I apologize. and please inform me where I’m wrong or if I made fallacies.
Carriethedragon
I don’t agree at all that there was “no way she could’ve”, because she is absolutely capable. I’m not even going to try to respond to the bit about “because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing,” because to be frank, I don’t understand what you meant by it at all.
I think Jocelyne is scared. But she’s not scared that it isn’t her place. She’s scared about what will happen if she begins to fight back against her family. She is stuck in an incredibly toxic situation. I’m not sure what she has in terms of resources for getting away from them, her own money, etc., but regardless of whether she could cut off ties with them or not, it’s a really hard situation that she’s in. As she once said to Ethan, she’s afraid she’ll say some things she can’t ever take back. Of course, in this strip, it seems like she may finally have had enough.
“She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.” This makes it sound like she was ashamed or felt at fault because of what Joyce was saying, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think she hid because, as I said before, she is worried about what will happen when conflict breaks out. She tried to divert the conversation to protect Joyce and Becky and to avoid the conflict, but I don’t think she in any way wants to silence what they have to say.
Wheelpath
Your opinion definitely makes more sense, and helps me understand why so many are mad at me. You are totally right, and now I see where I was making connections that aren’t strong at all frankly. I do get how it should be read as her trying to avoid conflict until now. That has just never been my strong suit, as you can tell with this thread.
Carriethedragon
I really appreciate you saying this! It’s always nice to have a positive experience with comments section discussions, haha.
Xenocide
This is how debates should be. It’s nice to see people explaining themselves without resorting to thinly veiled attacks and actually listening to responses rather than just getting defensive.
The sad thing is how often things go the other way instead 🙁
Seer Of Rage
I’m glad I decided to read this.
trlkly
I just don’t understand what you’re getting at. Yes, it would be completely out of character for Joss right now to have said this in front of Joyce. Yes, it would have been a bad idea for her to do it, given how John was acting, since at least part of what John was doing was trying to save face.
Yeah, maybe she has internalized some of the female gender roles of being passive, maybe even pursuing them because she’s female and that’s how women are “supposed” to act. And, yeah, she probably was raised to believe in the whole familial hierarchy where the bigger brother (as long as he’s a Christian) is an authority.
But it seems a bit simplistic to put it down to upholding the patriarchy. Especially when that’s a common refrain of the anti-trans feminists.
(They think trans people are upholding the patriarchy by claiming to have an innate gender.)
CJ
Are the feminist that oppose trans people because of the concept of innate gender? I always read the argument as “trans people were encourage to transition by (certain parts of) society because if they transition, they don’t threaten the traditional gender roles.” An either conform or transition- approach by society which puts more pressure on women who do stuff traditionally not supposed to be done by women.
Dave
Nothing to be sorry for! Language is strange and imperfect, it’s friggin’ difficult trying to get the full scope of thought across and misunderstandings spring from that. If anything I’m sorry for drawing an incorrect conclusion!
Viv
Uh…not really…Trans women are just as much victims of the patriarchy as cis women, even if they are still in the closet.
It’s true! women are women are women regardless if they’re cis or not. Trans women get an even shorter end of the stick than cis women do because transmisogyny is like regular misogyny… but super-charged.
Without being NEARLY so comfortable on the ol’ tushie as say, Charmin.
Carriethedragon
I don’t get why you’re saying this. Yes, we’re probably all propagators of the patriarchy to a degree, so you’re right in that sense. But why on earth are you zeroing in on Jocelyne? She is a member of a demographic that suffers the worst from the patriarchy and from the gender binary itself.
So why didn’t Jocelyne say this in the restaurant? She was afraid. And if that’s true, why is she saying it now? Because people aren’t automatons that say exactly the right thing at any given moment. It’s hard to make the right decision in a tense moment. It’s hardly ever done by anyone, imo. It’s really, really difficult.
Thor
Okay, Wheelpath. You have me curious here. Exactly *how* is Jocelyne a propagator of the infallible patriarchy?
ninja_jesus
Excuse me? Are you forgetting that she is trans existing in a trans-unfriendly space? Did you know trans people are often murdered in these spaces? Let me give an incredible “fuck you” for accusing Joss of being a part of something that would literally murder her if she went up against it.
Wheelpath
Holy shit you’re right. I did definitely deserve that, I hope what I said explains my view for everyone else, but actually yeah.
I was just too hopeful in thinking maybe they could be like Joyce, and once someone close has these issues with oppression they could change, but they aren’t…
Sorry
I do think the fact she’s being forced to be silent instead of supporting Becky is something like a special torture for Josie. She wants to help and be supportive but it could very well be physically dangerous. Not to mention financially if they’re struggling. Which makes it no less like a punch in the gut.
Rutee
Jocelyne is /likely/ pretty appraised on this stuff seeing as she’s young and in the modern era (and Gay males still have pride of place in queer networks, so what Becky’s gone through shouldn’t be unheard of for her). She’s scared because she has cause to be.
Apostate
Damn right. Hell, I’ve almost died for being a transwoman. Her fears are not unfounded.
Oh yeah, very much ditto on that. Including the almost dying part. Jocelyne will have a tough fucking road ahead and that’s a major part of why she’s scared. The other part is that she is incensed by it all, but she knows if she gives in to that anger she risks outting herself and that’s the ballgame.
Hell, I’d say it’s guaranteed that she’s stewing in anger all the time, especially with family. When you’re a girl, but everyone thinks you’re a boy and thus you’ll fully agree with their ultra toxic masculinity and sexist views of women, it’s hard not to be.
It’s like having a front row seat to the partiarchy’s worst showing.
It really doesn’t ‘help to be heavily armed’. Then you’re an extremist and it’s okay to kill you anyway. And you kinda have to sleep, and aren’t omniscient besides.
so you’re saying that, on pain of death, she’s upholding a part of the patriarchy?
Look, part of the point of saying things like “EVERYONE is sexist” or “Everyone is racist” is that, you know, we actually mean them, rather than using them as a shibboleth. Jocelyne is both victim and inadvertent, unwilling supporter. It /is/ fucked up to go after her more for it than the gal we know is way more gung ho on supporting patriarchy as a rule, but she DID just allow patriarchy to continue by inaction. I’m not going to get MAD about it, because yeah, even without the fear of death (Which is completely a legit fear for her), she’s still ultimately afraid (of a dozen other terrible things), but that doesn’t change that Joyce just suffered directly from patriarchy, and Jocelyne didn’t try to stop it.
ninja_jesus
That’s ridiculous logic and I don’t agree with you.
Rutee
Whether you agree or disagree, whether patriarchy hurts or helps you, makes no fucking difference. Did you support it through your action, or your inaction? If so, what you did is sexist. If that hurts you, well, it’s kind of immaterial to that question. “Is what you did something I should be angry with you about” is not actually the same question as “Is what you did sexist”
I really, really, REALLY don’t need any fucking Brave Defenders who will deny my agency, or people who want to strip the complexities of life away. These things are hard and life sucks. Sometimes you don’t get a good choice – you just have to choose shitty options. Jocelyne’s choices suck – let John abuse the patriarchy to hurt Joyce, or open herself up to abuse for opposing him publicly. I *respect* her decision, but I’m not going to deny what it did.
Yo…getting awfully close to TERF nonsense here, Wheelpath…might want to cool it with the “trans women are tools of the patriarchy” bullcrap.
Wheelpath
Considering I don’t identify as a feminist that would be bad. Also wasn’t trying to say that, but obviously I don’t know how to voice my opinions correctly, I apologize.
Tgape
Jocelyne is being *far* more effective talking to John one on one. That is, this way she has a chance of having a positive effect. If she’d spoken up in front of the evil sinner, she would have had no chance to do anything except undermine her own credibility in John’s eyes. Especially since she wouldn’t have been able to get the dig in about the fancy car bought by the poor for his use. I’ve had some second thoughts about something I said about John never seeing someone else’s problems as his own because of his missionary status, but if he’s driving that car around without guilt, he’s either an entirely thoughtless bastard or a sociopath. I’m hoping for thoughtless bastard, as that leaves some room for growth.
I think she may be forced to find a new ride home, depending whether John continues doubling down (likely) or not (in which case, he instead wants to try to prove he is a) a good christian and b) using the car well by getting Joss home.)
If only there was someone else there with a car.
Someone who’s also her family.
Someone who’s much safer for her to be around.
Someone she desperately wants to support.
If only…
HMH
Yeah, because Joss carpet-bombing her relationship with her entire family and hometown before she is established in life as a safe and assured independent, and doing so in such a way that would likely also guarantee her sister’s relationship with the family is destroyed, which would cost said sister her free college education from said family, is an absolutely sane and rational decision. Beyond that, you know how awful a position Becky is in right now? I can almost guarantee that at this early point in her college life, her adult life, Joyce’s parents could immediately leave her in the same position just by disowning her, let alone actively making it difficult for her to get what she needs to establish herself in life in the many ways that Toedad has for Becky?
Oh, not to mention that despite their despicable collection of human failings, Joss probably still loves at least some of her family, and knows that an explosive fucking drama bomb of in-fighting with unrepentant sinners will cost said family their entire social standing in their lifelong hometown, their very important positions in their church, even her older brother’s entire career and adult life up to this point. All of that could be gone in months or even weeks if this situation were to blow up into something that makes public record, or even generates the right rumours. I bet that Joss is plenty aware what most of the town is talking about related to this situation, and I bet it isn’t good. People can have genuinely shitty parents and any way Joss chooses to deal with that problem would be completely justified, but it’s entirely her choice to play this situation out how she thinks will keep everyone safer, or happier.
Joss is a meek person, but a calculating one, and she hopefully has some kind of long-term plan for gently making a clean break. Fuck, as meek as she has been shown to be, maybe she currently plans to stay closeted indefinitely – and that is absolutely a valid choice, despite the fact that it’s tragic and would make us all feel very sad, and possibly even make some people here outright hate her like she is some kind of traitor to trans* people. But undermining 25+ years of careful balancing to try to set herself up for a position where she could possibly live her life safely and happily by escalating a situation which may blow over with sufficient damage control and siding with her sister when she knows full well the family can’t possibly respect her as a sensible adult with meaningful agency is highly unlikely to help her sister or Becky, and will possibly destroy her own life in the process.
We would all love to see Joss take the warrior angle on this. It would be immediate, vindicating, and a beautiful symbolic and literal moment. But, the consequences are levels of dire that perhaps some people who haven’t experienced this sort of situation will find it difficult to comprehend. Even knowing of how dire they are, some in such a situation would choose to accept those consequences, and while that would be brave as hell for Joss to do, that does not make it the right choice, or the best choice, but simply the most honest and most satisfying. Once again, we know nothing about Joss’ long-term plan, and very little about her in general; we’re being clearly shown what Joss would like to do and projecting our desires to see her gain all the self-actualizing she would gain from finally getting to live true to who she is, and what she believes in, but with her upbringing this kind of dramatic moment is, if nothing else, not something she would ever just “jump into” the way that, say, Becky has.
But if anyone doubts the stakes here, please consider this and think about it in terms of precisely why Joss would want to see this blow over instead of come to a head; Joss is a member of the LGBQT community, and a member of the fundamentalist community, so she therefore knows well the dangers of being associated with the former and the reactionary attitudes of the latter. These girls are in a small American town that is predominantly fundamentalist, where their family is a well-known, well-respected, well-connected fixture of the community, and the young patriarch of the family is the local goddamned minister. Just think about what such a family could possibly do to solve the problem of a trouble-making, defiant, embarrassment of a daughter. Just think about the fact that this family is politically connected in the town’s hierarchy due to how deeply and thoroughly they are involved with the church, and that the vast majority of citizens and authority figures share their moral sensibilities. What if Joyce’s family decided that saving face with their community was worth more than their daughter’s safety, or even her life? Honour killings are a real thing, and not many questions would ever be asked if she were to suddenly disappear and never come back. Joyce is not in the same position as Joss to understand how much danger she may actually be putting herself in, so it’s great to see her react to all this in a way that mirrors our own frustration and disgust. But in Joss’ mind, I’m sure she’s trying to find a way to keep her sister from obliterating her current, privileged position in life for a simple moral victory that Joyce will be in a much safer position to assume after enacting a long-term plan.
Maybe I’m being excessively pessimistic, protective, or even paranoid with the extent to which I believe the danger could escalate in this situation. But not only is that level of discrepancy absolutely called for by those who are trapped in such situations, it suits the thinking of somebody brought up in such a hostile environment. John nailed the attitude of these people perfectly in his shut-down to Becky: People get what they deserve, and because you chose to do wrong, you should have expected all of the consequences that befell you and accept them as God’s will, and summary punishment for your wrongs. Even if you take the God parts out of it, this style of thinking often leads to that sort of never-ending forward-thinking and meticulous planning for the simple fact that you have internalized all outcomes as your direct responsibility and hold yourself fully accountable for ensuring that nothing bad ever happens.
I could have ascribed far too much thought into Joss’ motivations, but if nothing else, any and all deviations from her script with her family have a chance of raising suspicions she doesn’t want raised. If you think being a lesbian sympathizer isn’t going to go over well with the conservative establishment of a small town, think about the amount of immediate danger Joss would be in if she were ever outed before she has made a safe, clean break from the entire town? Being a gay ally is one thing, but a trans* person, in a place like that, from a family like that? She wouldn’t just be at risk from her family, anybody in that place might try to seriously hurt her. It could end up with a full-on lynch mob. Joss is meek, and scared, and is therefore understandably careful with how she handles her affairs, and if anybody is judging her for that they are seriously off their mark.
PlainMarie
^ Amen. Well said, HMH.
HMH
I do wish I was a bit nicer in retrospect, but I also wanted to be off-putting to try to highlight the actual gravity of this scenario, which might be lost on some people.
1,227 thoughts on “Trendy”
Ana Chronistic
See, this is why *I* only tithe to Willis and Spike Trotman! If either of THEM get a free GT, they’ve EARNED IT
(sensing Joss will seek a new ride home in 3, 2, 1…)
Ana Chronistic
anyway, India’s right next to Indiana, so YEAH???
[/sarcasm]
[/unless you count the dictionary]
gkheyf
what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not
Ana Chronistic
besides Urban Dictionary? well
Makkabee
“what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not”
The New Century Dictionary (1946 edition) has an index of geographical names at the end so India and Indiana do indeed appear next to each other in that dictionary. Page 2647, I think.
Lovely Monsters
I think I love you.
Kamino Neko
So what am I so afraid of?
TsunamiJane
*applause*
N0083rP00F
Sea cucumbers?
Tomas
Cuttlefish! I saw a documentary. It was terrifying.
Kamino Neko
…I actually am afraid of cuttlefish. (I am not, however, Klaw.)
RubyDroplets
True facts about the Cuttlefish?
quarktime
Ooh, someone’s dating themselves with THAT reference!
Kamino Neko
Oi! Take that back! I haven’t dated myself for years! I have a girlfriend who takes care of that, now. >_>
Clif
She dates herself for you?
Kamino Neko
If we’re in the mood for that, sure. >_>
Dakota
What reference are you guys making? I am so confused. T^T
Ana Chronistic
I’m afraid that I’m not sure of
A love there is no cure for
I think I love you
Something something in French*
Though it worries me to say
I’ve never felt this way
Heyyyyyyy
*elevator ding*
(*not the actual line here, in-joke substitute for the part I can’t remember w/o looking it up)
Falling Star
Everything.
Mr.Morningstar
So did you know that from memory or did you look it up
SgtWadeyWilson
The out of date college dictionary I read cover to cover for no good reason when I was about ten had proper nouns, a list of prefixes and suffixes, four alphabets and a whole page about semicolons. I didn’t really take the last one to heart, but that’s beside the point.
Lurlock
Umm, most dictionaries I’ve seen include proper nouns. Not even in a separate section, just right along with the rest of the words.
shazz_smifff
all the dictionaries i read at school had all the rude words underlined until i got to secondary school, then they were highlighted in pink or bright yellow
Watson The Snail
You think Indiana’s next to India? Na, man.
Random832
Well, it’s close enough that it could be in the adjacent column or the opposite page.
Reltzik
…. Wait.
…. Wouldn’t “Indian” be between the two?
Makkabee
Not when geographical names appear in a separate index.
Lovely Monsters
Okay, now I’m sure.
SeanR
At least you can get away with saying “India” is IN “Indiana”.
Clif
Dunno, but India is in Texas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India,_Texas
Ana Chronistic
waitWHOA it’s like
Christian is Christi with “an”
Indiana is India with “an” (Indi – AN – a)
Johann is John with “an”
MIND BLOWN
[/sarcasm]
Ana Chronistic
[[gonna cut back on sugar and take a nap now]]
Clif
Daw…
Xelgaex
What you did there, I see it.
TPman
Makes me think of the old cartoon with Columbus planting his flag in the ice and insisting that it was “Northern India”.
Historyman68
India? Na.
gkheyf
she coulda tried that in front of joyce, but still: zing!
if only there were a more rebellious ride for her to catch…
Wheelpath
No, she couldn’t have. As much as I love Jocelyne, she is still a propagator of the infallible patriarchy. It’s how she was raised, not her fault, and she can try to break it, but for now she has shown me she is more or less part of it.
Dave
Literally everyone is raised to be a propagator of patriarchy. Everyone. The implication that Jocelyne does so more than Joyce does (who just yesterday was laying down concepts of a woman’s role in marriage that are patriarchal to the core, and bucked Dorothy’s suggestion that it could be otherwise) by lieu of having been assigned a male gender at birth is kinda gross? Unless you meant something else by this and I’m misreading you, but that’s sort of the implication I’m getting. Sorry in advance if I’m misinterpreting.
Wheelpath
Oh, no, sorry. My fault, I should have been clearer, and you’re right, Joyce is terrible with that stuff, obviously (she’s growing but not great). At least she’s trying (she had to have a lesbian best friend and be held up for it to happen), I don’t see any of that from Jocelyne until now.
It is about gender, but not what Jocelyne was assigned at birth. I meant that there is no way she could’ve stood up to her brother because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing. Plus she’s been uber passive at all points before this, in part due to hiding sure, but you can’t tell me none of it is due to this. She didn’t help her sister because she’s scared and “it isn’t her place, she isn’t allowed to disagree.” She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.
If any of this came across as close-minded or misinformed, I apologize. and please inform me where I’m wrong or if I made fallacies.
Carriethedragon
I don’t agree at all that there was “no way she could’ve”, because she is absolutely capable. I’m not even going to try to respond to the bit about “because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing,” because to be frank, I don’t understand what you meant by it at all.
I think Jocelyne is scared. But she’s not scared that it isn’t her place. She’s scared about what will happen if she begins to fight back against her family. She is stuck in an incredibly toxic situation. I’m not sure what she has in terms of resources for getting away from them, her own money, etc., but regardless of whether she could cut off ties with them or not, it’s a really hard situation that she’s in. As she once said to Ethan, she’s afraid she’ll say some things she can’t ever take back. Of course, in this strip, it seems like she may finally have had enough.
“She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.” This makes it sound like she was ashamed or felt at fault because of what Joyce was saying, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think she hid because, as I said before, she is worried about what will happen when conflict breaks out. She tried to divert the conversation to protect Joyce and Becky and to avoid the conflict, but I don’t think she in any way wants to silence what they have to say.
Wheelpath
Your opinion definitely makes more sense, and helps me understand why so many are mad at me. You are totally right, and now I see where I was making connections that aren’t strong at all frankly. I do get how it should be read as her trying to avoid conflict until now. That has just never been my strong suit, as you can tell with this thread.
Carriethedragon
I really appreciate you saying this! It’s always nice to have a positive experience with comments section discussions, haha.
Xenocide
This is how debates should be. It’s nice to see people explaining themselves without resorting to thinly veiled attacks and actually listening to responses rather than just getting defensive.
The sad thing is how often things go the other way instead 🙁
Seer Of Rage
I’m glad I decided to read this.
trlkly
I just don’t understand what you’re getting at. Yes, it would be completely out of character for Joss right now to have said this in front of Joyce. Yes, it would have been a bad idea for her to do it, given how John was acting, since at least part of what John was doing was trying to save face.
Yeah, maybe she has internalized some of the female gender roles of being passive, maybe even pursuing them because she’s female and that’s how women are “supposed” to act. And, yeah, she probably was raised to believe in the whole familial hierarchy where the bigger brother (as long as he’s a Christian) is an authority.
But it seems a bit simplistic to put it down to upholding the patriarchy. Especially when that’s a common refrain of the anti-trans feminists.
(They think trans people are upholding the patriarchy by claiming to have an innate gender.)
CJ
Are the feminist that oppose trans people because of the concept of innate gender? I always read the argument as “trans people were encourage to transition by (certain parts of) society because if they transition, they don’t threaten the traditional gender roles.” An either conform or transition- approach by society which puts more pressure on women who do stuff traditionally not supposed to be done by women.
Dave
Nothing to be sorry for! Language is strange and imperfect, it’s friggin’ difficult trying to get the full scope of thought across and misunderstandings spring from that. If anything I’m sorry for drawing an incorrect conclusion!
Viv
Uh…not really…Trans women are just as much victims of the patriarchy as cis women, even if they are still in the closet.
Russ
It’s true! women are women are women regardless if they’re cis or not. Trans women get an even shorter end of the stick than cis women do because transmisogyny is like regular misogyny… but super-charged.
Leorale
Transmisogyny is, like, double-ply.
quarktime
Without being NEARLY so comfortable on the ol’ tushie as say, Charmin.
Carriethedragon
I don’t get why you’re saying this. Yes, we’re probably all propagators of the patriarchy to a degree, so you’re right in that sense. But why on earth are you zeroing in on Jocelyne? She is a member of a demographic that suffers the worst from the patriarchy and from the gender binary itself.
So why didn’t Jocelyne say this in the restaurant? She was afraid. And if that’s true, why is she saying it now? Because people aren’t automatons that say exactly the right thing at any given moment. It’s hard to make the right decision in a tense moment. It’s hardly ever done by anyone, imo. It’s really, really difficult.
Thor
Okay, Wheelpath. You have me curious here. Exactly *how* is Jocelyne a propagator of the infallible patriarchy?
ninja_jesus
Excuse me? Are you forgetting that she is trans existing in a trans-unfriendly space? Did you know trans people are often murdered in these spaces? Let me give an incredible “fuck you” for accusing Joss of being a part of something that would literally murder her if she went up against it.
Wheelpath
Holy shit you’re right. I did definitely deserve that, I hope what I said explains my view for everyone else, but actually yeah.
I was just too hopeful in thinking maybe they could be like Joyce, and once someone close has these issues with oppression they could change, but they aren’t…
Sorry
Charles Phipps
I do think the fact she’s being forced to be silent instead of supporting Becky is something like a special torture for Josie. She wants to help and be supportive but it could very well be physically dangerous. Not to mention financially if they’re struggling. Which makes it no less like a punch in the gut.
Rutee
Jocelyne is /likely/ pretty appraised on this stuff seeing as she’s young and in the modern era (and Gay males still have pride of place in queer networks, so what Becky’s gone through shouldn’t be unheard of for her). She’s scared because she has cause to be.
Apostate
Damn right. Hell, I’ve almost died for being a transwoman. Her fears are not unfounded.
Cerberus
Oh yeah, very much ditto on that. Including the almost dying part. Jocelyne will have a tough fucking road ahead and that’s a major part of why she’s scared. The other part is that she is incensed by it all, but she knows if she gives in to that anger she risks outting herself and that’s the ballgame.
Hell, I’d say it’s guaranteed that she’s stewing in anger all the time, especially with family. When you’re a girl, but everyone thinks you’re a boy and thus you’ll fully agree with their ultra toxic masculinity and sexist views of women, it’s hard not to be.
It’s like having a front row seat to the partiarchy’s worst showing.
quarktime
It helps to be heavily armed.
Rutee
It really doesn’t ‘help to be heavily armed’. Then you’re an extremist and it’s okay to kill you anyway. And you kinda have to sleep, and aren’t omniscient besides.
Cerberus
quarktime-
Sadly, even if that helped, it would not help us:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/11196-no-justice-when-women-fight-back
phildog
Well said.
Rutee
….
so you’re saying that, on pain of death, she’s upholding a part of the patriarchy?
Look, part of the point of saying things like “EVERYONE is sexist” or “Everyone is racist” is that, you know, we actually mean them, rather than using them as a shibboleth. Jocelyne is both victim and inadvertent, unwilling supporter. It /is/ fucked up to go after her more for it than the gal we know is way more gung ho on supporting patriarchy as a rule, but she DID just allow patriarchy to continue by inaction. I’m not going to get MAD about it, because yeah, even without the fear of death (Which is completely a legit fear for her), she’s still ultimately afraid (of a dozen other terrible things), but that doesn’t change that Joyce just suffered directly from patriarchy, and Jocelyne didn’t try to stop it.
ninja_jesus
That’s ridiculous logic and I don’t agree with you.
Rutee
Whether you agree or disagree, whether patriarchy hurts or helps you, makes no fucking difference. Did you support it through your action, or your inaction? If so, what you did is sexist. If that hurts you, well, it’s kind of immaterial to that question. “Is what you did something I should be angry with you about” is not actually the same question as “Is what you did sexist”
I really, really, REALLY don’t need any fucking Brave Defenders who will deny my agency, or people who want to strip the complexities of life away. These things are hard and life sucks. Sometimes you don’t get a good choice – you just have to choose shitty options. Jocelyne’s choices suck – let John abuse the patriarchy to hurt Joyce, or open herself up to abuse for opposing him publicly. I *respect* her decision, but I’m not going to deny what it did.
buckybone
Yo…getting awfully close to TERF nonsense here, Wheelpath…might want to cool it with the “trans women are tools of the patriarchy” bullcrap.
Wheelpath
Considering I don’t identify as a feminist that would be bad. Also wasn’t trying to say that, but obviously I don’t know how to voice my opinions correctly, I apologize.
Tgape
Jocelyne is being *far* more effective talking to John one on one. That is, this way she has a chance of having a positive effect. If she’d spoken up in front of the evil sinner, she would have had no chance to do anything except undermine her own credibility in John’s eyes. Especially since she wouldn’t have been able to get the dig in about the fancy car bought by the poor for his use. I’ve had some second thoughts about something I said about John never seeing someone else’s problems as his own because of his missionary status, but if he’s driving that car around without guilt, he’s either an entirely thoughtless bastard or a sociopath. I’m hoping for thoughtless bastard, as that leaves some room for growth.
Doctor_Who
Between Twins and Transformers, if Willis can get a Mustang as well I should just give him all my money, he clearly can manage it better than I can.
SgtWadeyWilson
So if he buys the movie version of Barricade, you’ll park the TARDIS where now? *Opens notepad.*
Marie
I think she may be forced to find a new ride home, depending whether John continues doubling down (likely) or not (in which case, he instead wants to try to prove he is a) a good christian and b) using the car well by getting Joss home.)
Liliet
If only there was someone else there with a car.
Someone who’s also her family.
Someone who’s much safer for her to be around.
Someone she desperately wants to support.
If only…
HMH
Yeah, because Joss carpet-bombing her relationship with her entire family and hometown before she is established in life as a safe and assured independent, and doing so in such a way that would likely also guarantee her sister’s relationship with the family is destroyed, which would cost said sister her free college education from said family, is an absolutely sane and rational decision. Beyond that, you know how awful a position Becky is in right now? I can almost guarantee that at this early point in her college life, her adult life, Joyce’s parents could immediately leave her in the same position just by disowning her, let alone actively making it difficult for her to get what she needs to establish herself in life in the many ways that Toedad has for Becky?
Oh, not to mention that despite their despicable collection of human failings, Joss probably still loves at least some of her family, and knows that an explosive fucking drama bomb of in-fighting with unrepentant sinners will cost said family their entire social standing in their lifelong hometown, their very important positions in their church, even her older brother’s entire career and adult life up to this point. All of that could be gone in months or even weeks if this situation were to blow up into something that makes public record, or even generates the right rumours. I bet that Joss is plenty aware what most of the town is talking about related to this situation, and I bet it isn’t good. People can have genuinely shitty parents and any way Joss chooses to deal with that problem would be completely justified, but it’s entirely her choice to play this situation out how she thinks will keep everyone safer, or happier.
Joss is a meek person, but a calculating one, and she hopefully has some kind of long-term plan for gently making a clean break. Fuck, as meek as she has been shown to be, maybe she currently plans to stay closeted indefinitely – and that is absolutely a valid choice, despite the fact that it’s tragic and would make us all feel very sad, and possibly even make some people here outright hate her like she is some kind of traitor to trans* people. But undermining 25+ years of careful balancing to try to set herself up for a position where she could possibly live her life safely and happily by escalating a situation which may blow over with sufficient damage control and siding with her sister when she knows full well the family can’t possibly respect her as a sensible adult with meaningful agency is highly unlikely to help her sister or Becky, and will possibly destroy her own life in the process.
We would all love to see Joss take the warrior angle on this. It would be immediate, vindicating, and a beautiful symbolic and literal moment. But, the consequences are levels of dire that perhaps some people who haven’t experienced this sort of situation will find it difficult to comprehend. Even knowing of how dire they are, some in such a situation would choose to accept those consequences, and while that would be brave as hell for Joss to do, that does not make it the right choice, or the best choice, but simply the most honest and most satisfying. Once again, we know nothing about Joss’ long-term plan, and very little about her in general; we’re being clearly shown what Joss would like to do and projecting our desires to see her gain all the self-actualizing she would gain from finally getting to live true to who she is, and what she believes in, but with her upbringing this kind of dramatic moment is, if nothing else, not something she would ever just “jump into” the way that, say, Becky has.
But if anyone doubts the stakes here, please consider this and think about it in terms of precisely why Joss would want to see this blow over instead of come to a head; Joss is a member of the LGBQT community, and a member of the fundamentalist community, so she therefore knows well the dangers of being associated with the former and the reactionary attitudes of the latter. These girls are in a small American town that is predominantly fundamentalist, where their family is a well-known, well-respected, well-connected fixture of the community, and the young patriarch of the family is the local goddamned minister. Just think about what such a family could possibly do to solve the problem of a trouble-making, defiant, embarrassment of a daughter. Just think about the fact that this family is politically connected in the town’s hierarchy due to how deeply and thoroughly they are involved with the church, and that the vast majority of citizens and authority figures share their moral sensibilities. What if Joyce’s family decided that saving face with their community was worth more than their daughter’s safety, or even her life? Honour killings are a real thing, and not many questions would ever be asked if she were to suddenly disappear and never come back. Joyce is not in the same position as Joss to understand how much danger she may actually be putting herself in, so it’s great to see her react to all this in a way that mirrors our own frustration and disgust. But in Joss’ mind, I’m sure she’s trying to find a way to keep her sister from obliterating her current, privileged position in life for a simple moral victory that Joyce will be in a much safer position to assume after enacting a long-term plan.
Maybe I’m being excessively pessimistic, protective, or even paranoid with the extent to which I believe the danger could escalate in this situation. But not only is that level of discrepancy absolutely called for by those who are trapped in such situations, it suits the thinking of somebody brought up in such a hostile environment. John nailed the attitude of these people perfectly in his shut-down to Becky: People get what they deserve, and because you chose to do wrong, you should have expected all of the consequences that befell you and accept them as God’s will, and summary punishment for your wrongs. Even if you take the God parts out of it, this style of thinking often leads to that sort of never-ending forward-thinking and meticulous planning for the simple fact that you have internalized all outcomes as your direct responsibility and hold yourself fully accountable for ensuring that nothing bad ever happens.
I could have ascribed far too much thought into Joss’ motivations, but if nothing else, any and all deviations from her script with her family have a chance of raising suspicions she doesn’t want raised. If you think being a lesbian sympathizer isn’t going to go over well with the conservative establishment of a small town, think about the amount of immediate danger Joss would be in if she were ever outed before she has made a safe, clean break from the entire town? Being a gay ally is one thing, but a trans* person, in a place like that, from a family like that? She wouldn’t just be at risk from her family, anybody in that place might try to seriously hurt her. It could end up with a full-on lynch mob. Joss is meek, and scared, and is therefore understandably careful with how she handles her affairs, and if anybody is judging her for that they are seriously off their mark.
PlainMarie
^ Amen. Well said, HMH.
HMH
I do wish I was a bit nicer in retrospect, but I also wanted to be off-putting to try to highlight the actual gravity of this scenario, which might be lost on some people.