More like they believe they are trash and doomed themselves. Linkara: “people that think they deserve punishment don’t want to get rid of that punishment… Oh I made myself sad.”
“Thicc” is positively connotated, though. “Fat” is somewhere between neutral to negative.
Yotomoe
What if I use it with a “P-h”
Sunny
That’s a weird case. I think it functions as a superlative as well as roots the root word firmly in neutral territory. So “phat” means “fatter than fat but no judgement”.
I’m going to lay money on Billie, but only because she feels like she has accepted that not only is change possible, but something to pursue. I expect her to fall off the wagon, and it’s hard to see her succeeding long-term… But long-term will be in a century anyways.
Whereas Amber doesn’t have any hope for herself. She knows she needs to, but she doesn’t really have the tools or help to move forward. So she’ll make progress in inches, but it’s hard to see her ever getting to a point where we’d say she has succeeded.
So to sum up, Billie is going to swing wildly and we’ll be able to call that she’s succeeded and then she’ll fall off the wagon again inevitably after that.
I was going to agree with you, but with Amber already moving on to a… Healthier hobby, and having conversations with someone who has experienced the good that therapy can do she really is on the path to success.
As you said, Billie has already made self improvement a goal, buuuut she was supposed to give up alcohol a long while ago. Maybe I misread it and she never intended to give it up, but I always felt like she tried but eventually rationalized it to her self that she didn’t need to. Hopefully this time it will stick, but she has been showing some signs of deep rooted addiction, and so far her effort of changing for the better is “If I get super drunk now, I won’t want to get super drunk later!” My two cents? Not a strong plan.
thejeff
As far as I can tell Billie never tried. The only time she even talked about it that I recall was way back before the Sexy Lesbian Suicide Pact, when she made a deal with Ruth for both of them to stop. It’s not clear that she actually did then, even briefly.
There was a three day time skip. Ruth showed withdrawal signs. Billie didn’t. We saw Billie drinking at the end of that day.
Schpoonman
Billie is the same shitstain she was on move-in day.
thejeff
Billie is still an alcoholic, yes.
She’s done many good things as well. None of the main characters here are shitstains.
(Alright, maybe Mike – though even he’s shown a few glimmers in the last storyline.)
Uhh, where or when has Billie accepted that change is something to pursue? Last I saw she was still trying to be “cool” for her new housemates, and also completely drunk. I don’t think she’s ever seriously tried to address her issues (or even admit that there are issues) at all.
I think Amber is currently in a better spot, improvement-wise, although I think her stuff is harder to overcome than Billie’s and may thus indeed take long and be met with many setbacks.
thejeff
She said a couple strips back that this was a last binge before going dry. We’ll see if she can hold to that or if she even really tries, but it’s more than we’ve seen from her before.
I suspect she has no idea how hard it’s going to be, since she’s never made the effort before. She’s likely to fail, but that may lead her to accept that it is a problem.
Felgraf
Yes, but she’d *previously* sworn to stop drinking, too.
thejeff
That once and there was little indication that it was anything other than a ploy to get Ruth to stop drinking. This time, it sounds like she actually realizes she needs to do it.
Ugh I hate this, stop being unnecessarily dramatic and make out.
Amber and Walky like each other and want to be together, but Walky is denying what would make him happy because he thinks that’s what he’s supposed to do.
Until recently, Walky did not empathize with Sal very much. In a way, he did not really care about her.
I think he’s more acting the way he thinks he should act, than acting according to his own feels.
Possible character development arc: He finally talks to Sal, who says, “Yeah, two weeks ago I would have said the opposite, but go ahead and date her if you want, I’m good with her now.”
And then he goes back to Amber and says, “I guess I can date you after all” and she says “No, it’s too late” and finally he learns something about not putting off important grown-up conversations.
I’m not saying this is likely in-story, but I feel like it’s consistent with the characters – which indicates Walky is not actually uncomfortable dating Amber because of what she did, but rather because of what he thinks Sal would do/say/feel about him dating Amber.
BBCC
I think, based on my own reading of how their last chat went, the fact Amber hurt his sister really DOES bother Walky in and of itself. It might not after he talks to Sal, sure, but I do think it’s bothering him by itself.
thejeff
Of course, if he breaks up with Amber, he can justify putting off that awkward conversation with Sal.
Emily
Whether or not your sibling has buried the hatchet with someone who seriously harmed them feels like it should be largely a moot point insofar as how you feel about dating that person. I can’t imagine any context in which I would even be able to be friends with someone who stabbed one of my sisters but then again I actually love them.
thejeff
So you think it’s morally necessary to continue to hold a grudge when the person directly affected doesn’t?
Emily
A) Holding a grudge and not being comfortable dating/befriending the person in question are not actually the same thing. “I don’t want to be romantically involved with the person that stabbed my sister” is not “I will hate them forever.” Either you’re intentionally misrepresenting my words or your reading comprehension needs work.
B) I think Sal should “hold a grudge” and the reason she doesn’t is gross forgiveness tropes that put the burden on people in minority groups to be unfairly accommodating of mistreatment by people in majority groups so yes, I’m not keen on Walky also absolving her of her pretty fucking awful treatment of Sal.
C) “Holding a grudge” is just loaded wording to try to portray not forgiving someone as unreasonable and I kind of hate it.
thejeff
Sorry for the phrasing.
Your statement sounded stronger than “I don’t want to be romantically involved with”, but maybe I was misreading it.
I do suspect that much of your reaction comes from your B. You don’t think Sal should befriend Amber, so you think Walky shouldn’t and you wouldn’t even if she does. Because you think she’s wrong.
Fair enough.
In a real situation, I’d prefer to defer to the actual injured person – unless I think there’s ongoing abuse or some other reason to doubt the actual “burying of the hatchet” is genuine.
Emily
Next time try reading the actual words I am saying instead of applying your own assumptions as to my meaning based off of I don’t even know what criteria. At no point did I espouse the opinion you ascribed to me.
I think wanting to date someone who assaulted and crippled one of your loved ones is fucking bizarre. It makes no sense to me emotionally. It’s not even a moral issue it’s a “I can’t even comprehend the headspace you’re in to even feel that way” issue. I could understand eventually forgiving them but viewing them as a viable romantic interest? Nah, that’s kinda fucked.
Inahc
Wow. It’s not that hard of a misinterpretation to make. This is just part of communication on the internet, no need to be mean about it. :/
thejeff
Okay.
Someday I’ll learn my lesson and stop responding.
Not to beat on a dead horse, but I can understand Emily’s frustration and I don’t think this is an entirely fair reaction to it. Was it a particularly nice response? No, I wouldn’t say that.
But Emily’s original point was.. pretty clear, and it is one that she has made repeatedly over months now. And the reply to that had some pretty loaded wording and almost willfully seems to misinterpret the message being said. Somehow “I can’t imagine any context in which I would even be able to be friends with someone who stabbed one of my sisters” turned into ” it’s morally necessary to continue to hold a grudge when the person directly affected doesn’t” and that is two completely different arguments. That is interpreting and implying completely different meanings and readings of someone’s character, and it’s not fair at all. And this is not the first time @thejeff has done this in his comments to Emily, especially when it comes to Amber/Amazi-Girl.
And this? “Okay. Someday I’ll learn my lesson and stop responding.” is guilt-trippy, dude.
I’m not trying to start a fight but rather point something out, for future communication purposes. Because it really feels like with Emily’s comments especially, people go out of their way to misinterpret them or infer something that she didn’t say or exaggerate to an extreme and that’s not fair as a conversational partner. And every single time, it’s always deflected away as Emily being brusque and rude, so it’s justified.
We all could be better with regards to internet etiquette and trying to avoid argument fallacies and intellectually disingenuous arguments and instead actually trying to engage with each other in a sincere, kinder way.
Inahc
And yet you have no problem with Emily getting a dig in when he apologized? I tried to be kind for a long time, and Emily keeps being mean, and I guess I’m just kinda done.
the final pam
I didn’t say I was okay with it. But in regards to the apology, saying “maybe I was misreading it” is a deflection. He did misread it, incredibly. There is a huge difference between what Emily said and what thejeff inferred from it, and like I said before, this is not the first time this has happened. It’s intellectually disingenuous to pretend that was a sincere attempt at conversation and not trying to push Emily into a corner. And maybe it is just poor phrasing, but it happens often. And it’s not just Emily this has happened to, thejeff has done this to me before too. So, I completely understand the frustration. That doesn’t make it okay, but I understand it. And personally, I feel like wildly misinterpreting someone’s argument isn’t kind either, especially with using loaded phrasing like that.
It’s okay if you’re done. You have every right to be. And I don’t mean to be lecturing you. If Emily’s not going to change her behavior, the simplest solution is to just simply stop engaging, if you can’t find yourself able to be impartial or kind.
Inahc
Huh. I read it as sincere, but I guess I’ve only been back a few days.
Tbh, if there was a block button I would have used it long before getting to BEC levels of frustration. As it is, I’ll probably have to go back to not reading any comments so I don’t have to see Emily and the other mean comments.
Also, like… If Emily can’t be kind, maybe *she* should stop engaging too. As it is she seems to get a free pass here and that’s one of the things that’s driving me nuts.
Alanari
Why should forgiveness of another person invalidate my own feelings? Am I not allowed to feel the way I feel because others don’t?
My mother (mostly) forgave her parents for a childhood that makes Ambers look nice and friendly in comparison. I haven’t. And I don’t see a reason why I should. In my opinion, brutally beating your own child is beyond forgiveness. Twice so if they beat my mother.
Emily
Yeah also this. Like people seemed to be a-okay with this concept when it was Amber maintaining her grudge after Ethan forgave Sal but Walky not wanting to date Amber because she stabbed Sal? Unreasonable, apparently.
Deathjavu
Not sure who “people” is in this context, but I mostly remember the discussion concluding that amber was wrong to be mad at Ethan for talking to sal.
Emily
Not what I said.
thejeff
No, of course not.
But you’re not obligated to stay hostile either. Which was the impression I was getting.
thejeff
As for Ethan/Sal, while Ethan was the only directly threatened, Amber was traumatized by it herself.
But I read, possibly incorrectly, the argument to be equivalent to “Sal hurt Ethan, so Amber shouldn’t forgive her, even if Ethan does”. (Amber hurt Sal, so Walky shouldn’t forgive her, even if Sal does.)
Inahc
It doesn’t even have to be a matter of choice; sometimes feelings are just gonna do what they want, and so you’re no longer comfortable around the person even if you wish you were.
It doesn’t even have to be a matter of choice; sometimes feelings are just gonna do what they want, and so you’re having feelings for the person who stabbed your sister even if you wish you weren’t.
Walky feels guilty about his sister in a LOT of ways. And Amber’s connection to Sal has basically let that guilt spread over. I don’t think he can feel happy with Amber anymore; not until Sal actively pushes them together.
Discussion (103) - “Roofs”
Ana Chronistic
just frickin’ bone on Garbage Roof already, you’re both trash
abysswatcher1993
More like they believe they are trash and doomed themselves. Linkara: “people that think they deserve punishment don’t want to get rid of that punishment… Oh I made myself sad.”
Yotomoe
I’ve drawn that before.
BBCC
I mean, there’s very few ways to say what you meant without stepping in it Walky.
You did not find one of them.
AnvilPro
Can’t they just pretend that airplanes in the night sky are shooting stars?
PB
They could really use a wish right now.
Needfuldoer
As long as stars don’t turn your wishes around on you, like genies.
Nono
I think last panel Walky is trying to dig himself sideways to China.
ShinyNeen
Ahh, exactly as smooth as we should expect Walky to be.
Skater Girl
There was no safe way to say it, Walky.
William Leonard Reese Jr.
. . Right so I think at this point we can almost officially say that these two are broken up.
Clif
You underestimate the addictive appeal of bittersweet.
Keulen
The ship’s got holes in it and it’s leaking but it could still be patched up, maybe.
DarkoNeko
Yes, he did.
Stephen Bierce
Stroke! And Rubbish You The Right Way…
Stephen Bierce
I misremembered. It’s been about 25 years!
ValdVin
Are they going to “not happen” (Walky’s words) without actually talking about their situation?
(Yeah, bit of a rhetorical question on this page.)
ReFlex76
“Did . . . did you just pat the roof?”
Yumi
“This baby can fit so much garbage on it.”
Jamie
ARE YOU CALLING ME FAT
Yotomoe
I think the term they use now is Thicc.
Sunny
“Thicc” is positively connotated, though. “Fat” is somewhere between neutral to negative.
Yotomoe
What if I use it with a “P-h”
Sunny
That’s a weird case. I think it functions as a superlative as well as roots the root word firmly in neutral territory. So “phat” means “fatter than fat but no judgement”.
Inahc
I keep trying to heart comments here but it’s not working ;P
Needfuldoer
*Slaps roof of roof*
Tacos
Yeah this was about a well as I expected from Walky.
Yumi
I could use a garbage roof tonight, personally.
Dana
Appropriate gesture of support.
Agemegos
Walky, you idiot! TALK TO SAL!
not someone else
Ouch. That… ow.
Yeah. “Proactively giving up items with shared memories to the other person” is pretty far into death of emotional connection.
newllend(henryvolt)
Yeah this fucking hurts, Garbage ship was so young.
newllend(henryvolt)
You know what I’ve been thinking and I got a net for you all. “Amber vs Billie: who can clean up their act faster.”
I’m serious, both have some serious soul-searching to do and to be better in certain aspects. The question is who can do it first.
Jamie
That’s an interesting bet. I’m… really not sure.
I’m going to lay money on Billie, but only because she feels like she has accepted that not only is change possible, but something to pursue. I expect her to fall off the wagon, and it’s hard to see her succeeding long-term… But long-term will be in a century anyways.
Whereas Amber doesn’t have any hope for herself. She knows she needs to, but she doesn’t really have the tools or help to move forward. So she’ll make progress in inches, but it’s hard to see her ever getting to a point where we’d say she has succeeded.
So to sum up, Billie is going to swing wildly and we’ll be able to call that she’s succeeded and then she’ll fall off the wagon again inevitably after that.
Catman
I was going to agree with you, but with Amber already moving on to a… Healthier hobby, and having conversations with someone who has experienced the good that therapy can do she really is on the path to success.
As you said, Billie has already made self improvement a goal, buuuut she was supposed to give up alcohol a long while ago. Maybe I misread it and she never intended to give it up, but I always felt like she tried but eventually rationalized it to her self that she didn’t need to. Hopefully this time it will stick, but she has been showing some signs of deep rooted addiction, and so far her effort of changing for the better is “If I get super drunk now, I won’t want to get super drunk later!” My two cents? Not a strong plan.
thejeff
As far as I can tell Billie never tried. The only time she even talked about it that I recall was way back before the Sexy Lesbian Suicide Pact, when she made a deal with Ruth for both of them to stop. It’s not clear that she actually did then, even briefly.
There was a three day time skip. Ruth showed withdrawal signs. Billie didn’t. We saw Billie drinking at the end of that day.
Schpoonman
Billie is the same shitstain she was on move-in day.
thejeff
Billie is still an alcoholic, yes.
She’s done many good things as well. None of the main characters here are shitstains.
(Alright, maybe Mike – though even he’s shown a few glimmers in the last storyline.)
Charlotte
Uhh, where or when has Billie accepted that change is something to pursue? Last I saw she was still trying to be “cool” for her new housemates, and also completely drunk. I don’t think she’s ever seriously tried to address her issues (or even admit that there are issues) at all.
I think Amber is currently in a better spot, improvement-wise, although I think her stuff is harder to overcome than Billie’s and may thus indeed take long and be met with many setbacks.
thejeff
She said a couple strips back that this was a last binge before going dry. We’ll see if she can hold to that or if she even really tries, but it’s more than we’ve seen from her before.
I suspect she has no idea how hard it’s going to be, since she’s never made the effort before. She’s likely to fail, but that may lead her to accept that it is a problem.
Felgraf
Yes, but she’d *previously* sworn to stop drinking, too.
thejeff
That once and there was little indication that it was anything other than a ploy to get Ruth to stop drinking. This time, it sounds like she actually realizes she needs to do it.
Yotomoe
My money’s on Amber. I think she’s got a better network at this point.
Foxhack
Did the sky suddenly get cloudy once Amber got on the roof?
AntJ
Good observation!
Bicycle Bill
When there are grey skies,
I don’t mind the grey skies,
You make them blue, Garbage Roof.
Woomy
Ugh I hate this, stop being unnecessarily dramatic and make out.
Amber and Walky like each other and want to be together, but Walky is denying what would make him happy because he thinks that’s what he’s supposed to do.
BBCC
Yeah, why on Earth would Walky be uncomfortable dating someone who stabbed his sister, even if she does make him happy?
Clif
He underestimates the power of garbage roof.
Chris Phoenix
Until recently, Walky did not empathize with Sal very much. In a way, he did not really care about her.
I think he’s more acting the way he thinks he should act, than acting according to his own feels.
Possible character development arc: He finally talks to Sal, who says, “Yeah, two weeks ago I would have said the opposite, but go ahead and date her if you want, I’m good with her now.”
And then he goes back to Amber and says, “I guess I can date you after all” and she says “No, it’s too late” and finally he learns something about not putting off important grown-up conversations.
I’m not saying this is likely in-story, but I feel like it’s consistent with the characters – which indicates Walky is not actually uncomfortable dating Amber because of what she did, but rather because of what he thinks Sal would do/say/feel about him dating Amber.
BBCC
I think, based on my own reading of how their last chat went, the fact Amber hurt his sister really DOES bother Walky in and of itself. It might not after he talks to Sal, sure, but I do think it’s bothering him by itself.
thejeff
Of course, if he breaks up with Amber, he can justify putting off that awkward conversation with Sal.
Emily
Whether or not your sibling has buried the hatchet with someone who seriously harmed them feels like it should be largely a moot point insofar as how you feel about dating that person. I can’t imagine any context in which I would even be able to be friends with someone who stabbed one of my sisters but then again I actually love them.
thejeff
So you think it’s morally necessary to continue to hold a grudge when the person directly affected doesn’t?
Emily
A) Holding a grudge and not being comfortable dating/befriending the person in question are not actually the same thing. “I don’t want to be romantically involved with the person that stabbed my sister” is not “I will hate them forever.” Either you’re intentionally misrepresenting my words or your reading comprehension needs work.
B) I think Sal should “hold a grudge” and the reason she doesn’t is gross forgiveness tropes that put the burden on people in minority groups to be unfairly accommodating of mistreatment by people in majority groups so yes, I’m not keen on Walky also absolving her of her pretty fucking awful treatment of Sal.
C) “Holding a grudge” is just loaded wording to try to portray not forgiving someone as unreasonable and I kind of hate it.
thejeff
Sorry for the phrasing.
Your statement sounded stronger than “I don’t want to be romantically involved with”, but maybe I was misreading it.
I do suspect that much of your reaction comes from your B. You don’t think Sal should befriend Amber, so you think Walky shouldn’t and you wouldn’t even if she does. Because you think she’s wrong.
Fair enough.
In a real situation, I’d prefer to defer to the actual injured person – unless I think there’s ongoing abuse or some other reason to doubt the actual “burying of the hatchet” is genuine.
Emily
Next time try reading the actual words I am saying instead of applying your own assumptions as to my meaning based off of I don’t even know what criteria. At no point did I espouse the opinion you ascribed to me.
I think wanting to date someone who assaulted and crippled one of your loved ones is fucking bizarre. It makes no sense to me emotionally. It’s not even a moral issue it’s a “I can’t even comprehend the headspace you’re in to even feel that way” issue. I could understand eventually forgiving them but viewing them as a viable romantic interest? Nah, that’s kinda fucked.
Inahc
Wow. It’s not that hard of a misinterpretation to make. This is just part of communication on the internet, no need to be mean about it. :/
thejeff
Okay.
Someday I’ll learn my lesson and stop responding.
Clif
Mmm.
the final pam
Not to beat on a dead horse, but I can understand Emily’s frustration and I don’t think this is an entirely fair reaction to it. Was it a particularly nice response? No, I wouldn’t say that.
But Emily’s original point was.. pretty clear, and it is one that she has made repeatedly over months now. And the reply to that had some pretty loaded wording and almost willfully seems to misinterpret the message being said. Somehow “I can’t imagine any context in which I would even be able to be friends with someone who stabbed one of my sisters” turned into ” it’s morally necessary to continue to hold a grudge when the person directly affected doesn’t” and that is two completely different arguments. That is interpreting and implying completely different meanings and readings of someone’s character, and it’s not fair at all. And this is not the first time @thejeff has done this in his comments to Emily, especially when it comes to Amber/Amazi-Girl.
And this? “Okay. Someday I’ll learn my lesson and stop responding.” is guilt-trippy, dude.
I’m not trying to start a fight but rather point something out, for future communication purposes. Because it really feels like with Emily’s comments especially, people go out of their way to misinterpret them or infer something that she didn’t say or exaggerate to an extreme and that’s not fair as a conversational partner. And every single time, it’s always deflected away as Emily being brusque and rude, so it’s justified.
We all could be better with regards to internet etiquette and trying to avoid argument fallacies and intellectually disingenuous arguments and instead actually trying to engage with each other in a sincere, kinder way.
Inahc
And yet you have no problem with Emily getting a dig in when he apologized? I tried to be kind for a long time, and Emily keeps being mean, and I guess I’m just kinda done.
the final pam
I didn’t say I was okay with it. But in regards to the apology, saying “maybe I was misreading it” is a deflection. He did misread it, incredibly. There is a huge difference between what Emily said and what thejeff inferred from it, and like I said before, this is not the first time this has happened. It’s intellectually disingenuous to pretend that was a sincere attempt at conversation and not trying to push Emily into a corner. And maybe it is just poor phrasing, but it happens often. And it’s not just Emily this has happened to, thejeff has done this to me before too. So, I completely understand the frustration. That doesn’t make it okay, but I understand it. And personally, I feel like wildly misinterpreting someone’s argument isn’t kind either, especially with using loaded phrasing like that.
It’s okay if you’re done. You have every right to be. And I don’t mean to be lecturing you. If Emily’s not going to change her behavior, the simplest solution is to just simply stop engaging, if you can’t find yourself able to be impartial or kind.
Inahc
Huh. I read it as sincere, but I guess I’ve only been back a few days.
Tbh, if there was a block button I would have used it long before getting to BEC levels of frustration. As it is, I’ll probably have to go back to not reading any comments so I don’t have to see Emily and the other mean comments.
Also, like… If Emily can’t be kind, maybe *she* should stop engaging too. As it is she seems to get a free pass here and that’s one of the things that’s driving me nuts.
Alanari
Why should forgiveness of another person invalidate my own feelings? Am I not allowed to feel the way I feel because others don’t?
My mother (mostly) forgave her parents for a childhood that makes Ambers look nice and friendly in comparison. I haven’t. And I don’t see a reason why I should. In my opinion, brutally beating your own child is beyond forgiveness. Twice so if they beat my mother.
Emily
Yeah also this. Like people seemed to be a-okay with this concept when it was Amber maintaining her grudge after Ethan forgave Sal but Walky not wanting to date Amber because she stabbed Sal? Unreasonable, apparently.
Deathjavu
Not sure who “people” is in this context, but I mostly remember the discussion concluding that amber was wrong to be mad at Ethan for talking to sal.
Emily
Not what I said.
thejeff
No, of course not.
But you’re not obligated to stay hostile either. Which was the impression I was getting.
thejeff
As for Ethan/Sal, while Ethan was the only directly threatened, Amber was traumatized by it herself.
But I read, possibly incorrectly, the argument to be equivalent to “Sal hurt Ethan, so Amber shouldn’t forgive her, even if Ethan does”. (Amber hurt Sal, so Walky shouldn’t forgive her, even if Sal does.)
Inahc
It doesn’t even have to be a matter of choice; sometimes feelings are just gonna do what they want, and so you’re no longer comfortable around the person even if you wish you were.
Clif
It doesn’t even have to be a matter of choice; sometimes feelings are just gonna do what they want, and so you’re having feelings for the person who stabbed your sister even if you wish you weren’t.
Jamie
It’s more complicated than that, IMO.
Walky feels guilty about his sister in a LOT of ways. And Amber’s connection to Sal has basically let that guilt spread over. I don’t think he can feel happy with Amber anymore; not until Sal actively pushes them together.
BBCC