I mean, I was always an atheist(ic-agnostic), but I knew for certain bc Slip ‘n Slide
that sounds like an interesting lead-up, but basically I knocked the wind out of myself when I was impatient and didn’t let it get slick enough, and had my mother not seen and revived me, I’d have been dead for certain at the ripe old age of eight
no magic lights or any of that, just the realisation of how stupid a death that would’ve been
I’ve heard lots of stories about people getting religion after a near death experience, but this may be the first time I’ve heard of it working the other way.
I love deconversion stories because of how unique they all are. I recently heard of a JW who deconverted because his couch broke while moving it, ffs! You never can tell what will reveal the man behind the curtain.
Gabriel A Klonoski
I stopped enthusiastically believing because of all the horrible stuff in the bible. I remember reading about Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt because she turned to look at her home and I thought to myself, “That’s just terrible… why would anyone do that to somebody?” and the rest of my class was laughing at the teacher’s joke that followed, “Guess she got a-salted!”
Tower of Babel, Sodom, the genocides, killing the men who got circumcised… all of it. It was terrible, unethical and just wrong on so many levels. I never understood how anybody could support that behavior from… well… anybody.
Rabid Rabbit
My personal favorites are the ones who deconverted because of Narnia. Evangelicals’ minds blow all over the place when they hear about those. (Generally, it’s because Narnia is so much cooler than the religion they were brought up in, and/or Narnia was their refuge from evangelicism and when they realized it was all Christian allegory, they felt incredibly betrayed and told all of it to go fuck itself.)
maarvarq
When I re-read TLTWATW as an adult, I could not believe that I’d missed the significance of the crucifixion scene when I’d read it as a child.
misanthropope
read that to my kid a few months ago. i love the part how there are about two paragraphs after aslan gets it about how terrible, how simply awful it is, and… oh never mind, he’s alive again.
it’s not a sacrifice it’s a fucking party trick.
Jhon
Lewis does religion right.
C.T Phipps
I’ve never quite understood the hatred of Narnia as Christian allegory. It seems to require a pre-existing hatred of Christianity to be angry at it since it’s just the “cool version of Christianity.” It’s like being upset that Thor is based on Norse mythology.
drs
It’s the perception that Lewis was trying to convert children on the sly.
C.T Phipps
Well you either believe that sharing what is good about your faith (Hindu, Norse, or whatever) is good or not.
thejeff
Thor – assuming you mean the Marvel version, doesn’t have anything to doing with “sharing what is good about your faith” or an attempt to “convert children on the sly”. It’s just appropriating some old myths for an adventure story.
That’s a really weird line of argument.
You can also share what is good about your faith openly. It might be the “on the sly” part people don’t like about Narnia.
Arian
He wasn’t, though. I can’t track down the quote, but he wrote somewhere that he felt that the story of the crucifixion, and other aspects of Christian faith, were so familiar to *Christians* that they needed to be refreshed by being expressed in different terms, so that they had the same impact on modern believers as they did on the people who first heard about it.
I also don’t think he expected children *not* to recognise the analogies when they saw them. I grew up in an atheist household, and I certainly realised that this was about Jesus when I first read “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe”. I was surprised when I found out that anyone thought it was sneaky or meant not to be noticed, because it was clear to me just from general cultural exposure – scripture classes at school, etc.
So yeah, the expected audience for the allegory was children who were Christians or Christianity-acculturated. It wasn’t a way to trick non-believers.
Adam Black
Most atheist’ households dont teach their children Christian scripture in grade school.
I ( like many young children ) were first exposed to narnia through mass media. it was almost a decade before i had enough unwanted exposure to Christian Theology to see this was a surreptitious conversion.
Xtifr
Well, for me–a young agnostic kid reading the Narnia books for the first time–the whole death and resurrection of Aslan just seemed like a weird plot tumor that made no sense. When I discovered it was there for religious reasons, my reaction was basically: “ah, religion leads to bad writing. Got it.” 🙂
Pimellon
It’s strange to me that *Christians* could read Narnia and not realize what it’s about. I mean, when my parents read the books to me as a kid, it was almost presented “Bible story time”. Not *quite* to the level of the Bible, but damn near close enough for kids. But I mean, I guess I can’t know how much of the allegory I would’ve missed had the adults in my life not spelled it out for me.
Jane
I recall an amusing story about a man who near-instantly lost his faith because the team he supported didn’t win a baseball game despite his prayers.
I’m not certain whether the anecdote taught me more about how seriously some people take religion, or how seriously some people take sports, though.
Geneseepaws
In many places sports are the major religion.
Needfuldoer
Does that mean team fandom is the equivalent of religious sects?
Jane
Oh, so that explains the weird tax exemptions they get.
C.T Phipps
I’d argue it proves some people don’t take religion seriously at all if their only use for it is what they get out of it via magic.
misanthropope
so the grifters really *are* the paragons of faith? interesting take
C.T Phipps
Well you should have religion because it encourages you to be a better person and because you believe it to be true. Not because you are rewarded for it. Indeed, what I always felt was the heart of the Job story (tacked on happy ending or not) is that “good is not rewarded in this life. Do it because it’s right.”
thejeff
As opposed to the “damn, God is an asshole” literal reading.
Pimellon
I dunno, if I thought magic worked I’d take it a lot more seriously, better person or not. I mean, I get other Christians being offended by that take. But as an atheist who doesn’t think any religions are true, as long as you’re not hurting anyone with your beliefs, I’m not really sure some reasons are *morally* better or worse than others for believing in something. If it’s just like anything else you always thought was true and could be harnessed for real effects in the world: I believe gravity exists, which in no way makes me a better person. If anything, falsifiable evidence (e.g. magical effects) is a pretty commendable reason to believe (or lose belief) in something.
Concolor44
Reminds me of how I once heard an acquaintance from Texas complain how people thought Texans treated high-school football like a religion. He maintained vehemently that it was much more important than that.
I fully deconverted when I nearly died from uterine hemorrhaging and realized I was completely alone. For me, it is nothing but void waiting for us. It weirdly makes life more worth living IMO. No heavenly reward – the rewards are in a life well-lived.
In no way do I mean to bum anyone out by bringing it up, but I had a similar experience when I was at my lowest and had planned to commit suicide.
My wishy-washy brand of non committal agnosticism took a sharp left into full atheism when I was dead set on ending my own life, and then just decided not to because it would have been stupid. God had nothing to do with that. No unearthly voices or divine intervention. Just me, and enough hatred for the universe to stick around out of spite.
(that was a long time ago, I promise I’m a little better adjusted these days, haha)
I am someone who can’t even commit to being an atheist, so agnosticism is
my term also, yet I thought that “wishy-washy” and “non-committal” were part and parcel.
(PS Glad that other stuff is in your past.)
Yet_One_More_Idiot
I was always an Atheist, but was raised from a young age by parents who used to be Church of England (until they had to leave because apparently all the other young parents in the congregation whose kids were being total nightmares, couldn’t stand the two newest parents whose babies wouldn’t stop crying! I shit you not) and became Methodists.
I also went to primary and secondary school that were both CofE, but by age 12 declared that I didn’t believe any of it and was actually an Atheist. My family were pretty cool about it and I was allowed to stop going to church at that age. My sister stopped too, deciding she was a non-religious spiritualist iirc.
jmsr7
WOW, well done, Osopescado, we’re glad you’re still here! Also, congratulations for your brain going ‘no, this is stupid’ through the depressive thoughts. That’s impressive!
As for you ValdVin, you can be both an atheist and and agnostic. Atheism covers what you believe, and agnosticism covers what you know. I’m an agnostic atheist myself because I don’t know if god exists or not, but i don’t believe that one does. (Note that i don’t believe that one does NOT exist because that’s a claim that requires evidence i don’t have)
I had no idea of the differences. I may reconsider things.
thejeff
For the most part, in the everyday living of one’s life, these fine distinctions don’t really matter. Other than when I’m arguing atheism online, it’s enough to know that I don’t believe in God.
No need to worry more about how I can’t prove God doesn’t exist than about how I can’t prove the infinite number of other things I don’t believe in don’t exist.
Osopescado
Haha thanks! I am also a nihilist, but I’m the brand of nihilist that believes that life doesn’t have any meaning unless you give a meaning to it yourself. That stated, I decided that my continued existence continues to have a meaning because video game developers continue to have cool ideas that are worth investing in. Right now I’m playing Valheim (very original I know).
Also, love is a real thing, and I’m trying to find someone who can stand my brand of bullshit and all that jazz too, lol.
I’ve had a similar experience. Not the religious part, but the suicidal bit. When I was younger, I was very depressed and was seriously considering ending it. Religion didn’t really play any role in it. I was full-on agnost by this time, believing that if there was a God, he really didn’t care. I had a plan, had gotten what I needed. I was trying to decide whether to actually go through with it when it occurred to me that if I did, “they” would win. And I wasn’t going to let them defeat me. It wasn’t quite spite, but stubborn pride. Oddly, it was this lowest part of my life that told me the most about who I am at my core.
Osopescado
I feel this for sure. I’m not totally sure whether it was my intelligent decision to not go through with my plan or my own narcissistic value of myself that stopped me. There was definitely a “them” that I defied though. I kind of feel that “they” were my peers who were neuro-typical and didn’t struggle the same way I did. In retrospect, I don’t think that that’s a fair assessment, of them or of me. That period of life taught me a lot about myself, and also about “them”.
I feel that. My own reason for turning back from suicide (with means in hand) was anger. Killing myself would have meant that _they_ had beat me, and Fuck That.
Sexuality, in case you were wondering. I was 17. I, too, am better now.
To clarify. because jokes are only funny if people can understand them: There is no Xbox Series Xbox One X 360 Special Edition X.
At the time of posting: The most highest-spec Xbox console is the Xbox Series X. Microsoft released a console called the Xbox Series S at the same time. The Series S lacks an optical drive and is somewhat lower-spec, only delivering 1440p60fps to Series X’s 8000p60fps(or 4000p120fps if you don’t have a display that’s wider than the tallest person ever is tall.).
. . Joe knew Mike existed at least. He kept punching Joe during Joe and Joyce’s first date.
Because Joyce hired him to.
Things were weird back then.
King Daniel
Besides that, I mean. 😛 I checked the tags, and literally the only time Joe and Mike appear together on-panel after that was in the similarly-early chapter where Mike entered Leslie’s class so he could harass Walky.
And that was posted nine years ago. Joe’s not likely affected much by Mike’s death, ‘s what I’m saying.
King Daniel
C’mon, Leslie is Cool Mom but I already got you yesterday.
Rainhat
As opposed to when, exactly? We still take for granted that there are supervillain parents, opposed by one girl with multiple personae and another who’s assumed to be able to fight because she hyperfixates on dinosaurs a lot. (Though the first one is being subbed in for by her costumed ex-bf, whose powers seem to derive from not applying himself.) Their friend recently discovered she converts their anger into her joy through some process.
I mean, given how he runs away from being anything that would make him likeable or understandable, he HAS to overcompensate by being extra Joe
Otherwise he would be just an empty husk
188 thoughts on “Shackles”
Ana Chronistic
I mean, I was always an atheist(ic-agnostic), but I knew for certain bc Slip ‘n Slide
that sounds like an interesting lead-up, but basically I knocked the wind out of myself when I was impatient and didn’t let it get slick enough, and had my mother not seen and revived me, I’d have been dead for certain at the ripe old age of eight
no magic lights or any of that, just the realisation of how stupid a death that would’ve been
Wizard
I’ve heard lots of stories about people getting religion after a near death experience, but this may be the first time I’ve heard of it working the other way.
jmsr7
I love deconversion stories because of how unique they all are. I recently heard of a JW who deconverted because his couch broke while moving it, ffs! You never can tell what will reveal the man behind the curtain.
Gabriel A Klonoski
I stopped enthusiastically believing because of all the horrible stuff in the bible. I remember reading about Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt because she turned to look at her home and I thought to myself, “That’s just terrible… why would anyone do that to somebody?” and the rest of my class was laughing at the teacher’s joke that followed, “Guess she got a-salted!”
Tower of Babel, Sodom, the genocides, killing the men who got circumcised… all of it. It was terrible, unethical and just wrong on so many levels. I never understood how anybody could support that behavior from… well… anybody.
Rabid Rabbit
My personal favorites are the ones who deconverted because of Narnia. Evangelicals’ minds blow all over the place when they hear about those. (Generally, it’s because Narnia is so much cooler than the religion they were brought up in, and/or Narnia was their refuge from evangelicism and when they realized it was all Christian allegory, they felt incredibly betrayed and told all of it to go fuck itself.)
maarvarq
When I re-read TLTWATW as an adult, I could not believe that I’d missed the significance of the crucifixion scene when I’d read it as a child.
misanthropope
read that to my kid a few months ago. i love the part how there are about two paragraphs after aslan gets it about how terrible, how simply awful it is, and… oh never mind, he’s alive again.
it’s not a sacrifice it’s a fucking party trick.
Jhon
Lewis does religion right.
C.T Phipps
I’ve never quite understood the hatred of Narnia as Christian allegory. It seems to require a pre-existing hatred of Christianity to be angry at it since it’s just the “cool version of Christianity.” It’s like being upset that Thor is based on Norse mythology.
drs
It’s the perception that Lewis was trying to convert children on the sly.
C.T Phipps
Well you either believe that sharing what is good about your faith (Hindu, Norse, or whatever) is good or not.
thejeff
Thor – assuming you mean the Marvel version, doesn’t have anything to doing with “sharing what is good about your faith” or an attempt to “convert children on the sly”. It’s just appropriating some old myths for an adventure story.
That’s a really weird line of argument.
You can also share what is good about your faith openly. It might be the “on the sly” part people don’t like about Narnia.
Arian
He wasn’t, though. I can’t track down the quote, but he wrote somewhere that he felt that the story of the crucifixion, and other aspects of Christian faith, were so familiar to *Christians* that they needed to be refreshed by being expressed in different terms, so that they had the same impact on modern believers as they did on the people who first heard about it.
I also don’t think he expected children *not* to recognise the analogies when they saw them. I grew up in an atheist household, and I certainly realised that this was about Jesus when I first read “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe”. I was surprised when I found out that anyone thought it was sneaky or meant not to be noticed, because it was clear to me just from general cultural exposure – scripture classes at school, etc.
So yeah, the expected audience for the allegory was children who were Christians or Christianity-acculturated. It wasn’t a way to trick non-believers.
Adam Black
Most atheist’ households dont teach their children Christian scripture in grade school.
I ( like many young children ) were first exposed to narnia through mass media. it was almost a decade before i had enough unwanted exposure to Christian Theology to see this was a surreptitious conversion.
Xtifr
Well, for me–a young agnostic kid reading the Narnia books for the first time–the whole death and resurrection of Aslan just seemed like a weird plot tumor that made no sense. When I discovered it was there for religious reasons, my reaction was basically: “ah, religion leads to bad writing. Got it.” 🙂
Pimellon
It’s strange to me that *Christians* could read Narnia and not realize what it’s about. I mean, when my parents read the books to me as a kid, it was almost presented “Bible story time”. Not *quite* to the level of the Bible, but damn near close enough for kids. But I mean, I guess I can’t know how much of the allegory I would’ve missed had the adults in my life not spelled it out for me.
Jane
I recall an amusing story about a man who near-instantly lost his faith because the team he supported didn’t win a baseball game despite his prayers.
I’m not certain whether the anecdote taught me more about how seriously some people take religion, or how seriously some people take sports, though.
Geneseepaws
In many places sports are the major religion.
Needfuldoer
Does that mean team fandom is the equivalent of religious sects?
Jane
Oh, so that explains the weird tax exemptions they get.
C.T Phipps
I’d argue it proves some people don’t take religion seriously at all if their only use for it is what they get out of it via magic.
misanthropope
so the grifters really *are* the paragons of faith? interesting take
C.T Phipps
Well you should have religion because it encourages you to be a better person and because you believe it to be true. Not because you are rewarded for it. Indeed, what I always felt was the heart of the Job story (tacked on happy ending or not) is that “good is not rewarded in this life. Do it because it’s right.”
thejeff
As opposed to the “damn, God is an asshole” literal reading.
Pimellon
I dunno, if I thought magic worked I’d take it a lot more seriously, better person or not. I mean, I get other Christians being offended by that take. But as an atheist who doesn’t think any religions are true, as long as you’re not hurting anyone with your beliefs, I’m not really sure some reasons are *morally* better or worse than others for believing in something. If it’s just like anything else you always thought was true and could be harnessed for real effects in the world: I believe gravity exists, which in no way makes me a better person. If anything, falsifiable evidence (e.g. magical effects) is a pretty commendable reason to believe (or lose belief) in something.
Concolor44
Reminds me of how I once heard an acquaintance from Texas complain how people thought Texans treated high-school football like a religion. He maintained vehemently that it was much more important than that.
TheEm
I fully deconverted when I nearly died from uterine hemorrhaging and realized I was completely alone. For me, it is nothing but void waiting for us. It weirdly makes life more worth living IMO. No heavenly reward – the rewards are in a life well-lived.
hoop
there were quite a few holocaust narratives along those lines.
yeah that’s right, i’m the debbie downer today
Osopescado
In no way do I mean to bum anyone out by bringing it up, but I had a similar experience when I was at my lowest and had planned to commit suicide.
My wishy-washy brand of non committal agnosticism took a sharp left into full atheism when I was dead set on ending my own life, and then just decided not to because it would have been stupid. God had nothing to do with that. No unearthly voices or divine intervention. Just me, and enough hatred for the universe to stick around out of spite.
(that was a long time ago, I promise I’m a little better adjusted these days, haha)
ValdVin
I am someone who can’t even commit to being an atheist, so agnosticism is
my term also, yet I thought that “wishy-washy” and “non-committal” were part and parcel.
(PS Glad that other stuff is in your past.)
Yet_One_More_Idiot
I was always an Atheist, but was raised from a young age by parents who used to be Church of England (until they had to leave because apparently all the other young parents in the congregation whose kids were being total nightmares, couldn’t stand the two newest parents whose babies wouldn’t stop crying! I shit you not) and became Methodists.
I also went to primary and secondary school that were both CofE, but by age 12 declared that I didn’t believe any of it and was actually an Atheist. My family were pretty cool about it and I was allowed to stop going to church at that age. My sister stopped too, deciding she was a non-religious spiritualist iirc.
jmsr7
WOW, well done, Osopescado, we’re glad you’re still here! Also, congratulations for your brain going ‘no, this is stupid’ through the depressive thoughts. That’s impressive!
As for you ValdVin, you can be both an atheist and and agnostic. Atheism covers what you believe, and agnosticism covers what you know. I’m an agnostic atheist myself because I don’t know if god exists or not, but i don’t believe that one does. (Note that i don’t believe that one does NOT exist because that’s a claim that requires evidence i don’t have)
ValdVin
I had no idea of the differences. I may reconsider things.
thejeff
For the most part, in the everyday living of one’s life, these fine distinctions don’t really matter. Other than when I’m arguing atheism online, it’s enough to know that I don’t believe in God.
No need to worry more about how I can’t prove God doesn’t exist than about how I can’t prove the infinite number of other things I don’t believe in don’t exist.
Osopescado
Haha thanks! I am also a nihilist, but I’m the brand of nihilist that believes that life doesn’t have any meaning unless you give a meaning to it yourself. That stated, I decided that my continued existence continues to have a meaning because video game developers continue to have cool ideas that are worth investing in. Right now I’m playing Valheim (very original I know).
Also, love is a real thing, and I’m trying to find someone who can stand my brand of bullshit and all that jazz too, lol.
Thanatos
I’ve had a similar experience. Not the religious part, but the suicidal bit. When I was younger, I was very depressed and was seriously considering ending it. Religion didn’t really play any role in it. I was full-on agnost by this time, believing that if there was a God, he really didn’t care. I had a plan, had gotten what I needed. I was trying to decide whether to actually go through with it when it occurred to me that if I did, “they” would win. And I wasn’t going to let them defeat me. It wasn’t quite spite, but stubborn pride. Oddly, it was this lowest part of my life that told me the most about who I am at my core.
Osopescado
I feel this for sure. I’m not totally sure whether it was my intelligent decision to not go through with my plan or my own narcissistic value of myself that stopped me. There was definitely a “them” that I defied though. I kind of feel that “they” were my peers who were neuro-typical and didn’t struggle the same way I did. In retrospect, I don’t think that that’s a fair assessment, of them or of me. That period of life taught me a lot about myself, and also about “them”.
C.T Phipps
I’ve died multiple times due to seizures. I admit I tend to think why I’m religious is related to it.
Illithid
I feel that. My own reason for turning back from suicide (with means in hand) was anger. Killing myself would have meant that _they_ had beat me, and Fuck That.
Sexuality, in case you were wondering. I was 17. I, too, am better now.
Sirksome
For a second I believed Joe was actually gonna be sincere. Nah just kidding. Way to keep it classy Joe!
Needfuldoer
Gotta keep up their public relationship.
I suspect they’ll keep serious discussion in their text conversation.
NinjaMaid
Joyce should look into Optimistic Nihilism, I feel like that could work for her.
ian livs
It’s been great for me, and Joyce is hella relatable to college-aged younger me, so… yeah, I feel like it’d work pretty well. ^_^
Nicole
This comment makes me laugh because of your picture lolol
Mravac Kid
I subscribe to Cryptooptimism, expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised when everything turns out better than expected. 🙂
Jhon
When nothing matters and everything is meaningless, you are free to make your own meaning.
Suet
In this foolish universe, the Xbox is still a 360.
And that blank check is nothing but zeros.
Spencer
re: alt text
Currently we are on the Xbox Series X, following the Xbox One X.
Delicious Taffy
No, it’s the Xbox Series Sbox One X 360 Special Edition X.
James
This feels like a terrible Abbot and Costello sketch.
StClair
or Street Fighter.
(third base!)
Clif
Not on the first date.
Khyrin
To clarify. because jokes are only funny if people can understand them: There is no Xbox Series Xbox One X 360 Special Edition X.
At the time of posting: The most highest-spec Xbox console is the Xbox Series X. Microsoft released a console called the Xbox Series S at the same time. The Series S lacks an optical drive and is somewhat lower-spec, only delivering 1440p60fps to Series X’s 8000p60fps(or 4000p120fps if you don’t have a display that’s wider than the tallest person ever is tall.).
Cattleprod
It’s really helpful that in real life the Xbox naming scheme is so confusing that people would just say ‘the current Xbox’ anyway.
Spencer
I just wanna know what went down to make us skip 359 Xbox consoles between the Xbox One and Xbox 360.
This joke sucks but it’s also why marketing specialists exists; so unfunny dorks like me don’t poke holes in your product’s stupid name.
Fuzzy
Only 358, I believe.
Spencer
My kingdom for an edit button.
Arian
I still grinned,
Amias
I’m still kinda sad we never got the Xbox 360 Delta.
(Because x □ o △ is the PlayStation button layout.)
Delicious Taffy
Cross, Box, Oh, and Diamond. >:(
I am Nothing
Unknown quantity, square, circle and an arrow missing its line.
StClair
That’s no arrow, it’s a delta.
Rabid Rabbit
The only one Joe knows about is the seXbox.
Needfuldoer
XXXBOX
Octopus Ink
Jeez, I think this Joe is even Joe-er than the previous reality’s Joe!
Lumino
Right? Feels like he’s overcompensating. There’s been a lot of issues with people acting flanderized.
I wonder if it’s part of the trauma related to the kidnapping and Mike dying.
King Daniel
Did Joe even know Mike?
William Leonard Reese Jr.
. . Joe knew Mike existed at least. He kept punching Joe during Joe and Joyce’s first date.
Because Joyce hired him to.
Things were weird back then.
King Daniel
Besides that, I mean. 😛 I checked the tags, and literally the only time Joe and Mike appear together on-panel after that was in the similarly-early chapter where Mike entered Leslie’s class so he could harass Walky.
And that was posted nine years ago. Joe’s not likely affected much by Mike’s death, ‘s what I’m saying.
King Daniel
C’mon, Leslie is Cool Mom but I already got you yesterday.
Rainhat
As opposed to when, exactly? We still take for granted that there are supervillain parents, opposed by one girl with multiple personae and another who’s assumed to be able to fight because she hyperfixates on dinosaurs a lot. (Though the first one is being subbed in for by her costumed ex-bf, whose powers seem to derive from not applying himself.) Their friend recently discovered she converts their anger into her joy through some process.
AGV
I mean, given how he runs away from being anything that would make him likeable or understandable, he HAS to overcompensate by being extra Joe
Otherwise he would be just an empty husk
RacingTurtle
Did this reality’s Joe teach his XBox to fly, tho?
Sirksome