… I think it sounds like she’s telling Joyce that she shouldn’t mourn Becky after she’s murdered. As in, Carol fully expects Ross to kill her.
Which is so FUCKED, I don’t have enough Us to write it properly.
Bryy
I don’t know what is worse: Carol telling Joyce to be okay with it, or Carol *ordering* Joyce to be okay with it.
C.T Phipps
I remember when people were speculating she was trying to warn Joyce.
Nope, Papa Brown is terrified of his wife and trying to hide how many times he’s been frantically calling Joyce.
AntJ
Or perhaps he was telling the truth, and *Carol* had been calling her a dozen times to deliver this message
CC
Seems likeliest at this point, especially since Joyce thought it was her dad again (implying Carol used his phone)
a/snow/mous/e
Yeeep… It was a warning, all right, but it was a warning that Joyce had better not put up a fuss with the church when Ross saves his daughter from herself… eugghh
Positron
The phone having been left on the counter made me think this too – she probably grabbed it and used it to try and reach Joyce
thejeff
Only a very few thought she’d been trying to warn her. Many thought and seem likely to have been right that she was calling for some other reason.
To try to obliquely justify what she’d done perhaps?
Insanenoodlyguy
That… really seems unlikely. On multiple levels. But for starters, why would Carol assume Ross would kill his daughter? His motivation, if really not thought through, is to get her away from all this and save her. Killing her would only condemn her sinning soul to hell. Kill all the negative influences around her, maybe (and I doubt Carol believes he’s going to do that either) , but Ross was having second thoughts when it appeared Mike was going to die, let along his own flesh and blood. You are taking this down a somewhat darker road then the story is going, I think.
Linkman0596
Just because Ross won’t murder Becky, doesn’t mean she won’t end up dead from what he is willing to do to “save” her
Regalli
Yeah. Let’s not forget what happened with Bonnie. I’m dead certain the narrowness of what she was allowed to be according to him and the church played a role in her attempting suicide.
Insanenoodlyguy
Unintential death from “I will save you whatever it takes” is still a far cry from “I intend to go kill my daughter” and Church saying “We will fund you going to kill your daughter.”
Wack'd
In the end, it’s still Carol and the church being okay with Becky ending up dead.
Leorale
To them, Becky is an acceptable loss.
It’s different than “please murder her outright” but it’s still super duper bad.
David
Well, it’s for Becky’s own best to be killed before she is able to commit more unredeemable sins. It will save her so much pain in the afterlife. Really, it’s a mercy killing. I wanted to add “come to think of it” to that last sentence, but thinking really has nothing to do with it.
Zaxares
Yeah, because she ascribes to a worldview where “it’s OK. We saved her soul so she’s in heaven now” is more important than the fact that somebody is dead. I personally find that kind of view utterly reprehensible, but I won’t deny the possibility that Carol and people like her COULD be right; none of us really know for sure what awaits us after we die. But at the end of the day, they believe they’re in the right, we believe we’re in the right, and life/society is all about everybody trying to make compromises so we can all live together despite these differences. The only other alternative is basically exterminating the other side so that your view is the only one that remains. (Which, basically, was what much of human history was all about.)
Bryy
No it’s not.
Joe
In reality, sure. But we’re talking within Carol’s mind. I don’t think she’s expecting Becky to die.
thejeff
Exactly. She’s looking at this as a parent disciplining his daughter for bad behavior, not as potential murder. There’s all sorts of awfulness tied up even in that, but I doubt she sees death as at all likely.
Romanticide
yes I feel that too. And how willfully blind she is being thinking that hi coming with a shotgun was no big deal.
Jhon
Ahem. Squirrel rifle.
Michael Haneline
Jhon, I assure you that Phil Foglio would not be thrilled with you using his art as an icon while insinuating that threatening one’s daughter with a rifle isn’t as bad if its with a squirrel rifle.
Bunny
Darker than Mike getting dead?
Shane
He might only be imprisoned and tortured.
Maybe he’s even in a hospital somewhere.
Maybe! Who knows, maybe someone had a change of heart, maybe even Toe Dad was like “hmmkay I’m here to ‘save’ my daughter, not murder some random kid for accusing you of mafia crimes, which to be honest you responding with murder does kinda lend his claim some credence.”
Beef
“which to be honest you responding with murder does kinda lend his claim some credence”
If people like Ross actually thought like this a lot more politicians would be in jail
wilddeath
“I would die for you.” <—- cause that isn't a red flag….
TrueVCU
Two words: Honor Killing
Marsh Maryrose
Ross is not going to murder his daughter. That would send her to hell, and he’s going to do anything he can to keep that from happening.
He will, however, grit his teeth and murder anyone else to keep that from happening. Where they wind up is not his responsibility.
LeslieBean4shizzle
Depends on several factors.
If he’s assuming that Becky hasn’t yet committed any mortal sins, then killing her now, while she’s mostly ‘pure’ might send her to heaven. Ross would be sending himself to hell, but he is willing to pay that price to ‘save’ her.
Like I said, not enough ‘U’s.
dinajoyce
Mortal sins are a Catholic thing and don’t really exist in evangelical land. The question would be whether or not she still truly believes in Jesus. Ross is probably of the opinion that she cannot simultaneously identify as a lesbian and really believe in Jesus, so therefore, he needs to “fix her” before she could go to heaven. So he probably really needs her to NOT die, based on his own logic.
That’s Vaermina. Vormir is just a slightly archaic word that means “previous”, often used in contrast to “latter”.
Regalli
Yay, another Vorkosigan fan!
Good old 118 Dowries Vormuir. Wonder how he’s doing now.
(The answer is: not well, because of all the dowries, and it’s great.)
LeslieBean4shizzle
Oh shit! I missed that being a Bujold reference! Well spotted, Regalli.
I feel dumb. Civil Campaign is my very favorite Bujold novel.
CJ
Given the comments, I won’t google any of this.
LeslieBean4shizzle
That’s probably wise – Civil Campaign is like the 14th book in the series. You wouldn’t want spoilers.
^^
But seriously, the Vokosigian series is pretty great. A Sci-Fi adventure series that morphs seamlessly into a sci-fi mystery series.
The “baby factory” comment is also far less icky than it sounds. The series as a piece of technology that replaces “being pregnant” with a machine and does not require sexual cells to operate – a cheek swab from any two people go in and nine months later a baby comes out.
LeslieBean4shizzle
….
… trying.. to resist urge… to pontificate about the Vorkosigian series…
Which I misspelled in the previous post. Shit.
But seriously, it’s a great novel series, and I could ramble about it for ages. Particularly how the Uterine Replicator started out as a minor plot point but slowly expanded to be a major element of the universe upon which entire novels hang as the author Fridge Brillianced her way through the implications of such a machine.
clif
I feel like Fridge Brillianced should come with a tropes link.
Joyce is right outside the Student Union, the location where she was eating lunch (and she currently can see the site of Mike’s fall as well as any police tape that would be up as a result of it).
Cool thing I just noticed: Obviously things have improved for her since she can be outside without an escort. Too bad she is finding a new source of trauma.
Yeah, Ryan donating some major organs for transplant would go a long ways towards Joyce feeling safe on campus again. But Toe Dad on campus would negate those feelings.
I think we first saw her walking on her own outside after the stabbing, yeah. (In a symbolic shot where she was looking at the police tape or something, even.) That was an improvement!
It will likely be short-lived. I really do hope Roz’s suggestion she talk to someone way back after that party turns out to be a really long-waiting Chekhov’s Gun. Poor girl needs hella therapy.
Discussion (414) - “The right thing”
Doctor_Who
Oh good, I was worried for a second there.
Yumi
Luckily, Carol is here to assure us that they were just getting Toe Dad out of jail so that they could take him out themselves.
…That’s What she’s saying, right?
LeslieBean4shizzle
… I think it sounds like she’s telling Joyce that she shouldn’t mourn Becky after she’s murdered. As in, Carol fully expects Ross to kill her.
Which is so FUCKED, I don’t have enough Us to write it properly.
Bryy
I don’t know what is worse: Carol telling Joyce to be okay with it, or Carol *ordering* Joyce to be okay with it.
C.T Phipps
I remember when people were speculating she was trying to warn Joyce.
Nope, Papa Brown is terrified of his wife and trying to hide how many times he’s been frantically calling Joyce.
AntJ
Or perhaps he was telling the truth, and *Carol* had been calling her a dozen times to deliver this message
CC
Seems likeliest at this point, especially since Joyce thought it was her dad again (implying Carol used his phone)
a/snow/mous/e
Yeeep… It was a warning, all right, but it was a warning that Joyce had better not put up a fuss with the church when Ross saves his daughter from herself… eugghh
Positron
The phone having been left on the counter made me think this too – she probably grabbed it and used it to try and reach Joyce
thejeff
Only a very few thought she’d been trying to warn her. Many thought and seem likely to have been right that she was calling for some other reason.
To try to obliquely justify what she’d done perhaps?
Insanenoodlyguy
That… really seems unlikely. On multiple levels. But for starters, why would Carol assume Ross would kill his daughter? His motivation, if really not thought through, is to get her away from all this and save her. Killing her would only condemn her sinning soul to hell. Kill all the negative influences around her, maybe (and I doubt Carol believes he’s going to do that either) , but Ross was having second thoughts when it appeared Mike was going to die, let along his own flesh and blood. You are taking this down a somewhat darker road then the story is going, I think.
Linkman0596
Just because Ross won’t murder Becky, doesn’t mean she won’t end up dead from what he is willing to do to “save” her
Regalli
Yeah. Let’s not forget what happened with Bonnie. I’m dead certain the narrowness of what she was allowed to be according to him and the church played a role in her attempting suicide.
Insanenoodlyguy
Unintential death from “I will save you whatever it takes” is still a far cry from “I intend to go kill my daughter” and Church saying “We will fund you going to kill your daughter.”
Wack'd
In the end, it’s still Carol and the church being okay with Becky ending up dead.
Leorale
To them, Becky is an acceptable loss.
It’s different than “please murder her outright” but it’s still super duper bad.
David
Well, it’s for Becky’s own best to be killed before she is able to commit more unredeemable sins. It will save her so much pain in the afterlife. Really, it’s a mercy killing. I wanted to add “come to think of it” to that last sentence, but thinking really has nothing to do with it.
Zaxares
Yeah, because she ascribes to a worldview where “it’s OK. We saved her soul so she’s in heaven now” is more important than the fact that somebody is dead. I personally find that kind of view utterly reprehensible, but I won’t deny the possibility that Carol and people like her COULD be right; none of us really know for sure what awaits us after we die. But at the end of the day, they believe they’re in the right, we believe we’re in the right, and life/society is all about everybody trying to make compromises so we can all live together despite these differences. The only other alternative is basically exterminating the other side so that your view is the only one that remains. (Which, basically, was what much of human history was all about.)
Bryy
No it’s not.
Joe
In reality, sure. But we’re talking within Carol’s mind. I don’t think she’s expecting Becky to die.
thejeff
Exactly. She’s looking at this as a parent disciplining his daughter for bad behavior, not as potential murder. There’s all sorts of awfulness tied up even in that, but I doubt she sees death as at all likely.
Romanticide
yes I feel that too. And how willfully blind she is being thinking that hi coming with a shotgun was no big deal.
Jhon
Ahem. Squirrel rifle.
Michael Haneline
Jhon, I assure you that Phil Foglio would not be thrilled with you using his art as an icon while insinuating that threatening one’s daughter with a rifle isn’t as bad if its with a squirrel rifle.
Bunny
Darker than Mike getting dead?
Shane
He might only be imprisoned and tortured.
Maybe he’s even in a hospital somewhere.
Maybe! Who knows, maybe someone had a change of heart, maybe even Toe Dad was like “hmmkay I’m here to ‘save’ my daughter, not murder some random kid for accusing you of mafia crimes, which to be honest you responding with murder does kinda lend his claim some credence.”
Beef
“which to be honest you responding with murder does kinda lend his claim some credence”
If people like Ross actually thought like this a lot more politicians would be in jail
wilddeath
“I would die for you.” <—- cause that isn't a red flag….
TrueVCU
Two words: Honor Killing
Marsh Maryrose
Ross is not going to murder his daughter. That would send her to hell, and he’s going to do anything he can to keep that from happening.
He will, however, grit his teeth and murder anyone else to keep that from happening. Where they wind up is not his responsibility.
LeslieBean4shizzle
Depends on several factors.
If he’s assuming that Becky hasn’t yet committed any mortal sins, then killing her now, while she’s mostly ‘pure’ might send her to heaven. Ross would be sending himself to hell, but he is willing to pay that price to ‘save’ her.
Like I said, not enough ‘U’s.
dinajoyce
Mortal sins are a Catholic thing and don’t really exist in evangelical land. The question would be whether or not she still truly believes in Jesus. Ross is probably of the opinion that she cannot simultaneously identify as a lesbian and really believe in Jesus, so therefore, he needs to “fix her” before she could go to heaven. So he probably really needs her to NOT die, based on his own logic.
clif
Yumi, that’s what I heard.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
clif
It’s a Willis comic. What could go wrong?
JA
Every character contracts butts disease.
DarkoNeko
now that’s gonna require bigger orgies
sirconanad
Goddamn it Carol.
LeslieBean4shizzle
That is a very sinister looking Carol.
Doctor_Who
That’s a Carol that Joyce would be advised not to accompany to Vormir.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Vormuir? The guy with the baby factory?
King Daniel
Vormir, aka the “soul for a soul” planet.
Delicious Taffy
No, you’re thinking Boromir. Vormir is a level in Mass Effect where you have to make a difficult decision.
Deadjolras
No, that’s Virmire. Vormir is that kink where someone fantasizes about being eaten alive.
clif
Take the Internet. Please.
Radiance
That’s vore. Vormir is the color of the dream-world Parabola in the game Fallen London.
MrBookBoy
That’s Violant. Vormir is the small species of rodents often used to make furs.
King Daniel
Those are voles. Vormir is the Daedric Prince of nightmares in The Elder Scrolls.
foundling fae
That’s Vaermina. Vormir is just a slightly archaic word that means “previous”, often used in contrast to “latter”.
Regalli
Yay, another Vorkosigan fan!
Good old 118 Dowries Vormuir. Wonder how he’s doing now.
(The answer is: not well, because of all the dowries, and it’s great.)
LeslieBean4shizzle
Oh shit! I missed that being a Bujold reference! Well spotted, Regalli.
I feel dumb. Civil Campaign is my very favorite Bujold novel.
CJ
Given the comments, I won’t google any of this.
LeslieBean4shizzle
That’s probably wise – Civil Campaign is like the 14th book in the series. You wouldn’t want spoilers.
^^
But seriously, the Vokosigian series is pretty great. A Sci-Fi adventure series that morphs seamlessly into a sci-fi mystery series.
The “baby factory” comment is also far less icky than it sounds. The series as a piece of technology that replaces “being pregnant” with a machine and does not require sexual cells to operate – a cheek swab from any two people go in and nine months later a baby comes out.
LeslieBean4shizzle
….
… trying.. to resist urge… to pontificate about the Vorkosigian series…
Which I misspelled in the previous post. Shit.
But seriously, it’s a great novel series, and I could ramble about it for ages. Particularly how the Uterine Replicator started out as a minor plot point but slowly expanded to be a major element of the universe upon which entire novels hang as the author Fridge Brillianced her way through the implications of such a machine.
clif
I feel like Fridge Brillianced should come with a tropes link.
C.T Phipps
Carol was always awful but now this is, “That Jewish girl was threatening the Fuhrer by her existence.”
Alanari
I’ve learned to avoid people who insist that their actions are always right. It’s usually a very bad sign.
Retrikaethan
can confirm. that kind of logic works backwards, too. they use it to justify things they’ve already done even when shown they are wrong.
Wizard
Good people do good things. They’re good people, therefore, the things they do must be good. QED.
clif
My actions are always wrong. That means you can trust me.
Van Jealous
That was the sound of all of the air being sucked out of the room…er..ah..campus grounds….
Van Jealous
….along with all of the background art…
clif
What we call Locus Evanescet in the biz.
Kensou
Also called the Tite Kubo Effect.
Leorale
I like it. It makes her look super small and alone.
Adam Black
is joyce home ?
Bathymetheus
She’s somewhere on campus. Carol seems to be in the house.
Delicious Taffy
Oh god, she’s already in the house!
JBento
The call was, indeed, coming from inside the house.
Dr. T
Joyce is right outside the Student Union, the location where she was eating lunch (and she currently can see the site of Mike’s fall as well as any police tape that would be up as a result of it).
Cool thing I just noticed: Obviously things have improved for her since she can be outside without an escort. Too bad she is finding a new source of trauma.
Julez
Pretty sure the dude who attacked her getting ventilated helped a bit with that.
Opus the Poet
Yeah, Ryan donating some major organs for transplant would go a long ways towards Joyce feeling safe on campus again. But Toe Dad on campus would negate those feelings.
Regalli
I think we first saw her walking on her own outside after the stabbing, yeah. (In a symbolic shot where she was looking at the police tape or something, even.) That was an improvement!
It will likely be short-lived. I really do hope Roz’s suggestion she talk to someone way back after that party turns out to be a really long-waiting Chekhov’s Gun. Poor girl needs hella therapy.