A better term than “Male to Female” is Maab trans* (Male Assigned At Birth) or DMAB trans* (Designated Male at Birth). On their own, neither M/FAAB nor DM/FAB indicate a trans* person, but MtF and FtM have been criticized because it indicates that genitals are important to gender identity. Another reason that M/FaaB and DM/FaB are more widely used by the trans* community is because both terms include non-binary trans* people AND intersex people. (Trans* with an asterisk also indicates that you’re dealing with the trans* umbrella, not just transgender people.)
Christine
Personally i think Maab etc is appropriate more for when you don’t know what would go at the end of MtBLAH etc, otherwise use the term appropriate. I know i prefer MtF, but then again whatever terminology the person referred to prefers is the correct one xD
Undrave
I think it’S too late in the night for me to be able to follow what you’re saying @.@
Emoroffle
I’m transgendered and I can’t follow all this terminology, time of day be damned.
I just heard: “A better term than “[human]” is [human] ([homo sapian]) or [human] ([homo sapian])….”
JK
Please don’t do that… people who self-identify do it for a reason…
NightRaven
There is never a good idea to self identify with anyone else than yourself. Each and every case of human personality/sexuality/philosophy/religion/politics is uniquely different. I feel by appropriating a generic term for any of them, you “lose” part of yourself and what makes you you, and stand the risk of letting your personal feeling and thoughts being automatically decided for you just because the group you choose to identify with have taken a collective stance towards an issue. But just because you may have a lot of common with a certain group of people, doesn’t mean that you now suddenly ARE those people. I think too much focus today has been put on the whole “self identifying” thing, as in identifying with someone else. It is a good thing to identify yourself, of course, but look at it more as a catch-all phrase that partly describes you, and be aware that others may have entirely different opinions on what that phrase or word actually MEANS.
And neither religion, politics or sexuality are that imporant. The important things are how you treat yourself, how you treat others, and that you know what you like and don’t like.
JK
@NightRaven … Except those aren’t the only things that matter. What about how others treat you. Or how you want to be treated. Or what you want people to know about you when entering into a dialogue or relationship.
Unfortunately, we don’t live in a perfect world where every human sees every other human as a blank slate with no labels attached. More often than not, somebody is going to look at you an assume something about your gender, sexuality, race, identity.
You are right that no label is perfect, and some people may choose not to self-identify with one label or another or any labels at all. And that is fine, and I respect that choice! But because a thing is unimportant to one person does not mean it is unimportant to others…
Pat
Never describe things. Being able to communicate is EVIL.
Layn
oh good. I thought i was the only on… No actually i’m pretty aware that we’re all confused about all the terminology people keep making for us
Emoroffle
Indeed. As long as nothing is said with malice I’m pretty forgiving if people don’t know what I prefer. I personally find MtF to be easy to use and comprehend.
Sunrea
That is kind of how I’ve viewed everything my whole life. The words are not necessarily the most important thing. The way those words are said has always been much more important to me. The slang/meanings of words are always changing but you can almost always tell if the feeling behind something is judgemental/rude/just plain mean, regardless of what they actually said.
TPman
Indeed, intent over vocabulary.
He'Stan
Many of us prefer “transwoman” for Maab and “transman” for Faab since it has slightly less association with our biological sex.
“I want to be FAABulous, but all I am is MAABulous”
Ben
Yeah, “transwoman” is the term my friend uses to refer to herself.
apostateCourier
I usually just use “trans,” if that level of classification is necessary- or if I really have to be specific I say transwoman. For day-to-day I just say I’m a woman. ‘Cause I am one.
transwoman is what I use, until I find an appropriate name to use 😛
PIGGIE
I prefer AMAB (“assigned male …”) to MAAB just because it’s clearer when you pronounce it.
DarkVeghetta
Sounds like the MOBA vs ARTS debate. Eventually MOBA won because it just sounds better to most. Language sometimes goes the path of least resistance.
GUIGUI
Well, Genital Are important for gender identity. I mean, if it weren’t, Trans wouldn’t desire to change them in the first place. Genital are important for gender identity because many trans actually desire to modify them so that the gender of their genital fit the gender of their brain. It’s kind of a big issue.
K^2
Not really. I know at least one individual who identifies as a female, yet entirely happy with her male genitalia. I’m lead to understand that such a thing is not entirely uncommon. Identity itself is not just about your physical self. You can be ambivalent about it or even prefer the form that is opposite to your gender identity. Hence the comment that starts this branch of discussion.
GUIGUI
On the other hand, there are Trans who will kill themselves for not being born with the right set of genital. Seriously, the Trans Community is the one with one of the highest ratio of suicide (tough it’s also due to rejection by the family/community, but also caused by the feeling of body inadequacy).
So saying the gender of the genital is not important is far from being true for everyone.
K^2
Of course. But it’s not a contradiction with the above. Nobody said that genitals are never a factor. Just that a label which implies that they always are is misleading. So long as we accept the fact that there are exceptions either way, presented argument against MtF label follows.
Though, I would argue that any label is going to have such problems, but that’s a separate discussion. As somebody said earlier, whatever label an individual uses to self-identify, I’m happy with that.
As a non-op trans woman, I can definitely agree with K^2’s statements. Genital importance varies wildly in our community, from those who absolutely cannot stand the anatomy they were born with to people like me, who are totally fine with it, and had other issues with the sex they were assigned at birth.
Also, for the record, “trans” is an adjective (usually modifying man/woman/person or similar), not a noun. Referring to us as “a trans” or just “trans” in a manner such as in “…there are trans who…” is incorrect and potentially very offensive, depending on who you’re dealing with, because it is dehumanizing. We are trans women and trans men, along with the many shades of nonbinary trans people, not transwomen, transmen, or transpeople.
DarkVeghetta
^ “trans people” seems rather redundant, as we are all people. Hence why ‘trans’ is winning out in common parlance.
Not quite an adjective, really. Mostly because ‘trans’ isn’t a proper word in English, but slang – shorthand for that matter. Since it doesn’t have long-established parameters fencing it in, people tend to use it as they -think- is appropriate.
Funny thing though – the more it gets used a certain way, the more accepted it becomes by the general speaking public, which in turn may eventually lead to it becoming a official word fitting the perception most hold of it.
This is how a shorthand adjective can in time become a proper noun. It’s not there yet officially, but as far as most people are concerned, it is already there.
TL;DR: In common parlance “trans” = (newly formed) noun , “transgendered” = adjective.
PiGuy
@DarkVeghetta
1) “Not quite an adjective, really. Mostly because ‘trans’ isn’t a proper word in English, but slang – shorthand for that matter.”
Whether or not something is slang has no bearing on its usable syntax.
“Trans” is short for “transgender” (not “transgendered” by the way – it’s not a verb), which if you look it up in most any dictionary, turns out to be an adjective, not a noun. As a shortened version of the word, it shares the same syntactical significance and should thus be (and most commonly is) used as an adjective.
2) Yes, that is an explanation of how slang is incorporated into the “official” language pool, but you should listen to your own explanation. I don’t know where you got the idea that those are the “common parlance” terms – any dictionary (including urban dictionary – a slang hub) will show you the adjective definition of “trans” as a shortening of “transgender”.
3) You’re missing the main point here.
Syntactical significance, slang evolving into “official language,” and all else aside…
Calling someone “a trans” is offensive and is often used in a derogatory context. The poster before you clearly pointed this out, but you ignored their primary argument. The word “fag” is also a shorthand noun that has been accepted into common use. Does that mean it’s okay to use it regularly to refer to gay people? Nope! Because it’s offensive. Just because something is syntactically significant doesn’t mean you should use it.
SyntheticPhylum
There really is no hard and fast rule regarding the gender you identify as and the type of plumbing you keep between your legs, though many people in all sides of the Gender Identity Clusterfuck™ do try to assign rules! Take me, for example. Physically male, by preference bisexual, and by mentality somewhere between androgynous and hermaphroditic. I don’t know if that makes me generic genderqueer, or just strange, since all my “gender variances” are strictly internal.
Kennerly
I don’t think I have a mental gender either. I like girls and I’m physically male, and that’s always been my definition of straight male, but if that’s not accurate, I might as well be a lesbian woman. And if you believe in re-incarnation, who can say how many times I might have been and will be again female?
Arkantos
Where did you get a Spider Jerusalem Gravatar?
DarkVeghetta
Since there are no real futa irl, I’ve pretty much just went with ‘pansexual’ and called it a day. As for ‘internal gender variance’ – it’s a clusterfuck of rainbows, kittens, explosions and blood in there.
It all mixes into a hot gooey mess that is my psyche.
DarkVeghetta
To clarify: I’d be most attracted to futa, then women, then a very few select men. I’m not saying I’d be a futa… though… now that I mention it… excuse me, my penis is calling.
Also: “real […] irl” is redundant. Mah bad, it’s late.
Mat
just chiming in a couple days late to say that actually, whether or not genitals are important depends on the trans* person. I’m trans* and have no issue with my genitals. A dear friend of mine is trans* and as deep issues with dysphoria. It varies from person to person.
Jason
As a transman, I disagree that FtM/MtF are used solely to refer to genitalia. Personally, I would say “female to male” would refer to my life experiences and what I “lived as”. Whether I like it or not (obviously I don’t) I have experiences of living and being viewed as female, and that has been a large influence in shaping who I am.
But I’m more or less the opposite of “active in the trans* community”, so that’s just my thoughts.
Choosing to go by a female alias doesn’t necessarily tell us that they suffer from gender dysphoria or what their gender identity is, however, so I’m not assuming one thing or another about J. Brown the Second Child just yet.
Jason
…And then I hopped on the laptop to check the alt text. Damn Kindle not letting me see it!
Happy Fluffy Gamer
can someone PLEASE explain what the hell is going on and who is joceylin? is that joyce’s full name or something?
Joshi
The character that we were introduced to as Joshua, Joyce’s brother, identifies as a female, Jocelyne.
Revak
Y-You can read Webcomics on a kindle? But what about the colors?
And I feel your pain brother, my smartphone also hates alt-text ;-;
Toad
Probably one of the fancy full-color ones.
Jason
Yup! My fiance was given it a year ago, and at the time I believe it was quite new. It’s mostly used for the internet and to fuel his Angry Birds obsession- amusingly, I don’t think we’ve ever actually read a book on it.
The lack of alt text is a downer, but at least I can read stuff as he works or studies.
tahrey
Better, but as someone who’s been exposed to (…okay, this is gonna sound awkward but I’m low on both sugar and caffiene) this sorta thing for probably 15 years now, I can’t say I’ve ever heard any of those terms you use, so they might take a little more time to catch on.
For now, MtF / FtM is a reasonable descriptor is it not? It describes both their birth assignment and/or naturally expressed phenotype, and their mental gender / surgically and artificial-hormonally target/acquired phenotype in one easily written and understood package.
That said, I’m still confused here. Either we’re dealing with, ahem, a MaaB sibling who still fronts up as a male “Joshua” to their parents, but is actually Jocelyne in private/on the quiet – which I think is more likely* – or FaaB who was originally named Jocelyne but now passes for male, as “Josh”, full time.
* Clues: Parents and presumably Joyce also “don’t know very much”, and call “him” Josh, and accept the presented male (if still a touch effeminate – enough to trip Ethan’s gaydar) outlook without protest; and the site that s/he texted to Ethan – in preference to saying it out loud in front of Joyce – bears a generally female name…
Rokk
Since Joyce mentioned she was the only girl in one comic or the other, I’m’a go with ‘a MaaB sibling who still fronts up as a male “Joshua” to their parents, but is actually Jocelyne in private/on the quiet’ too
well, it’s important to not feel like one term is superior to another, especially if that superiority is based in length of time of use of said term. we’re always coming up with better descriptors, we humans, and it’s typically the people who those labels affect that decide, and that get to decide, not cisgendered people like myself! of course I do not know how you identify, but I am always trying to keep up on the kindest terminology out there to have as few barriers of communication between myself and those around me, in general!
DarkVeghetta
@tahrey Also MtF/FtM is shorter then MAAB/FAAB. Hence more pleasing to use in general. Rolls off the keyboard/tongue better too.
stevecharb
You know, I’m sympathetic to LGBTQ/”Alphabet Soup” issues, but maybe inventing and teaching a complicated new glossary of artificial PC vocabulary isn’t the best way to earn mainstream support.
Toad
Support shouldn’t have to be “earned.” People should be treated like people, regardless of their preferred lexicon. Heck, even if a group consists entirely of total jerks, they should still be treated like people, and that’s way worse than having a complex set of terminology to describe, as accurately as possible, one’s identity.
There’s a reason certain parts of the queer community use “ally” disparagingly.
Right, and no one should be racist and there should be no wars.
But that’s not the world we live in. It isn’t about should or shouldn’t, it’s about what will be most effective in making the world a better place.
Toad
If your criteria for granting people basic human rights is that they bend over backwards to make your life easier, then I can’t bring myself to care about what you think.
katzgoboom
^
Pat
Not going out of your way to fail at communication =/= bending over backwards to make someone else’s life easier.
Toad
Using accurate terminology to describe yourself =/= failing at communication.
Jason
It’s not about bending over backwards to do anything. The main reason for most prejudices is a lack of understanding. If you’re introducing so many terms and phrases that it seems like trying to read an advanced coding textbook and even trans* people often get lost, you’re not fostering understanding. By making it much harder to understand, you’re making it harder for the prejudice to die.
I never understood the need for fifteen different phrases. I am a man. I am also transsexual. If I ever need to explain this to someone (which seldom happens because it’s not their business), I call myself “a transsexual man”. People can identify with whatever label fits them, but if you want people to understand and accept aspects of you, you have to communicate in a way they can understand.
If your criteria for effective communication is accusing anyone that fails to perfectly digest your confusing, constantly changing, and inconsistent lexicon of terms as being homophobic, then I can’t bring myself to care about what you think either, Toad. But I’ll continue to try to make the world a better place despite your efforts to make it worse.
sd
In this case it’s more that they not bend over backwards to be a pain in the ass.
Toad
My point was not that the trans* lexicon, such as it is, is a shining example of effective communication. My point was that one ought not use effective communication as the metric by which to measure how many human rights are deserved. Refusing to support a minority group because they use confusing words is a pretty shitty example of “making the world a better place.”
You are arguing against a point I didn’t make, TPRJones. I never said that people who don’t perfectly use the language considered currently appropriate are homophobic or transphobic. I did say that refusing to support the cause of gay/queer/trans rights because they use too many acronyms, or are annoying sometimes, or whatever, is awful.
If you think a human rights cause is just, then you should support it. (At least passively; I don’t demand that anyone go out and protest for every single cause they theoretically support.) If every single member of some group was a total jerk, and they were being denied human rights, I’d still support them. That people think being confusing is a reasonable rationale for denying people rights is pretty disgusting.
Toad
@sd: People are people, even if they are a pain in the ass, and therefore deserve your support.
And just as equally you are arguing against a point I didn’t make, Toad. I never said that people who are unwilling to use effective communication don’t deserve human rights and equality under the law. I did say that if you throw a raging hissy fit every time someone doesn’t use exactly the right term you have chosen for yourself rather than attempt to actually communicate with them about these things they don’t understand, then you aren’t going to be changing anyone’s minds that way.
Toad
@TPRJones: Then you are arguing against a point I didn’t make. If you read the post of mine you initially responded to, you will see that I was objecting to people holding their “ally” status hostage over minority groups behaving the way they think they should. If you don’t disagree with me on that point, then why did you throw a “hissy fit” over a point I didn’t make? Remember, you responded disparagingly to me in the first place, not the other way around.
Actually I was defending stevecharb’s point that winning support by attacking someone for failing to understand complex and relatively arbitrary terminology is not a practical expectation. Neither he nor I said that it was therefor valid to treat people as less than human, that was your assumption that you added – rather insultingly, I might add – to the conversation.
Clearly this is getting us nowhere. I give up. You go ahead and keep shitting on everyone around you and hoping that might make them change their minds. Good luck with that.
Rutee
There’s a lot of words for trans people. There’s also a lot of words for angry people. There are a lot of words for happy people. Communicating well means learning a large vocabulary, period.
Toad
@TPRJones: stevecharb’s original post said nothing about anyone being attacked; it was specifically about “inventing and teaching” a bunch of terms. Your initial response to my criticism was sarcasm. You quickly escalated to claiming that I was actively trying to make the world a worse place, throwing a hissy fit, and shitting on everyone around me. I fail to see how that makes me the one who’s being insulting. (Or, for that matter, the one behaving as you claimed I was.)
I said that it was not acceptable to treat people as less than human for describing themselves in a complex manner. I did not even say that stevecharb said that it was acceptable. When you angrily disagreed with my post, I assumed you therefore disagreed with the contents of that post, and responded accordingly.
Freemage
If your ‘support’ is unable to include the learning of a few terms, it may be a good idea to re-evaluate the value you think those communities should assign to it.
Toad
Ding ding ding! Freemage gets it.
Terrible Name
Its not a few terms though. Its an inconsistent ever changing dictionary of terms, some of which are preferred by some while others are seen as offensive by the same community. I can deal with individual people, but I can’t deal with the trans ‘community’ because I can’t get through their layers of terminology. Even my transsexual friends have problems with what the term of the week is, and the ‘community’ can apparently get pretty caustic about it even with trans* people.
I call people whatever they identify as, provided they stay within the boundaries of english (xie is stupid). I do not care what is in their pants, unless its of burning importance to them that I know, and then I usually tell them Id rather not have known.
Toad
That’s a fine complaint. The terminology is inconsistent and confusing. That’s an issue that should be addressed. Denying a group your support because its members can’t agree on what they want to be called is pretty atrocious. People aren’t taking umbrage with someone saying “your usage of terms is confusing;” the problem is that people hold their “ally” status hostage over it. Phrases like “you’re making it really hard for me to support you right now!” and “if you want me to support you, you should just make it less confusing for me” are all too common. Being confused is acceptable; no one denies that the lexicon has gotten a bit confusing. Denying a group of people fundamental human rights because they all describe themselves with different acronyms is pretty messed up.
davidbreslin101
“….the problem is that people hold their “ally” status hostage over it.” You’ve spelled out something which has often bothered me about these arguments without me quite being able to put my finger on it. Thanks! (And actually, most LGBTQ etc people I know seem pretty tolerant of well-intentioned fumblings with the terminology. Though that could just be low expectations.)
“Phrases like “you’re making it really hard for me to support you right now!” and “if you want me to support you, you should just make it less confusing for me” are all too common”
Well, that’s just people being assholes. Tell them to stop being assholes.
Look, it doesn’t matter who a person is, they deserve equal rights under the law and the opportunity to pursue their own life goals as best they can. If someone will not support the rights of even their worst and most hated enemy, then they have failed at freedom and clearly don’t understand the basic responsibilities of being a citizen. Or maybe they are just douche-nozzles. That’s also possible.
All that having been said, all too many times I’ve seen some poor schmuck who doesn’t understand LGBTQ issues but is trying to be supportive being viciously attacked because he used the wrong pronoun. If he’s not a douche he’s not going to then “withdraw support” because he would know that even assholes deserve equality. But he’s less likely to actively go out of his way to champion the cause than he was before.
Some people in the trenches of this war need to realize that attacking everyone indiscriminately when they don’t use the proper gender passwords of the week doesn’t make things better.
Toad
Sure, TPRJones, I’ll agree with you on those points. I was writing about the assholes who like to imagine they’re paragons of tolerance while demanding that queer people do XYZ thing in order for them to be willing to support them. I suspect you read my criticism of those people as a criticism of genuinely well-meaning but confused allies.
Ash
TRPJones has it dead on.
Toad, you’re missing the fundamental problem, which is that yes, it’s one thing if someone says “hey, I prefer you call me ____” but it’s total complete asshattery to blow up at people who make an assumption that would be valid 97% of the time when you haven’t even told them in the first place. Being part of a minority group does not, last time I checked, confer powers of telepathic projection (if it does, mine must’ve got lost in the mail, the jerks), so it’s really illogical to expect other people to know every nuance of our existence.
Toad
@Ash: I agree with everything in your post except the part where you implied that I ever disagreed with anything you just said. Honest mistakes are just that, honest mistakes, and should be treated as such. Demanding that queer people stick to the terms that straight people prefer to make it easier on “allies” is what I was taking exception to in my posts.
Toad
Oh, and I’m going to assume that you have no objection to “google” being used as a term for “internet search,” so why is “xe” any different? Language changes. Some language is intentionally invented. Some of it occurs “organically.” None of it is passed down from like, mischievous river spirits or something.
It’s no hardship to you to call someone “xe” instead of “it,” if they specifically ask you to, so why not?
1,443 thoughts on “Writer”
Tunaro
Dun Dun DUN!
Smooth
Wait, what?
Tunaro
She’s MtF
Raibean
A better term than “Male to Female” is Maab trans* (Male Assigned At Birth) or DMAB trans* (Designated Male at Birth). On their own, neither M/FAAB nor DM/FAB indicate a trans* person, but MtF and FtM have been criticized because it indicates that genitals are important to gender identity. Another reason that M/FaaB and DM/FaB are more widely used by the trans* community is because both terms include non-binary trans* people AND intersex people. (Trans* with an asterisk also indicates that you’re dealing with the trans* umbrella, not just transgender people.)
Christine
Personally i think Maab etc is appropriate more for when you don’t know what would go at the end of MtBLAH etc, otherwise use the term appropriate. I know i prefer MtF, but then again whatever terminology the person referred to prefers is the correct one xD
Undrave
I think it’S too late in the night for me to be able to follow what you’re saying @.@
Emoroffle
I’m transgendered and I can’t follow all this terminology, time of day be damned.
GrrArg42
I just heard: “A better term than “[human]” is [human] ([homo sapian]) or [human] ([homo sapian])….”
JK
Please don’t do that… people who self-identify do it for a reason…
NightRaven
There is never a good idea to self identify with anyone else than yourself. Each and every case of human personality/sexuality/philosophy/religion/politics is uniquely different. I feel by appropriating a generic term for any of them, you “lose” part of yourself and what makes you you, and stand the risk of letting your personal feeling and thoughts being automatically decided for you just because the group you choose to identify with have taken a collective stance towards an issue. But just because you may have a lot of common with a certain group of people, doesn’t mean that you now suddenly ARE those people. I think too much focus today has been put on the whole “self identifying” thing, as in identifying with someone else. It is a good thing to identify yourself, of course, but look at it more as a catch-all phrase that partly describes you, and be aware that others may have entirely different opinions on what that phrase or word actually MEANS.
And neither religion, politics or sexuality are that imporant. The important things are how you treat yourself, how you treat others, and that you know what you like and don’t like.
JK
@NightRaven … Except those aren’t the only things that matter. What about how others treat you. Or how you want to be treated. Or what you want people to know about you when entering into a dialogue or relationship.
Unfortunately, we don’t live in a perfect world where every human sees every other human as a blank slate with no labels attached. More often than not, somebody is going to look at you an assume something about your gender, sexuality, race, identity.
You are right that no label is perfect, and some people may choose not to self-identify with one label or another or any labels at all. And that is fine, and I respect that choice! But because a thing is unimportant to one person does not mean it is unimportant to others…
Pat
Never describe things. Being able to communicate is EVIL.
Layn
oh good. I thought i was the only on… No actually i’m pretty aware that we’re all confused about all the terminology people keep making for us
Emoroffle
Indeed. As long as nothing is said with malice I’m pretty forgiving if people don’t know what I prefer. I personally find MtF to be easy to use and comprehend.
Sunrea
That is kind of how I’ve viewed everything my whole life. The words are not necessarily the most important thing. The way those words are said has always been much more important to me. The slang/meanings of words are always changing but you can almost always tell if the feeling behind something is judgemental/rude/just plain mean, regardless of what they actually said.
TPman
Indeed, intent over vocabulary.
He'Stan
Many of us prefer “transwoman” for Maab and “transman” for Faab since it has slightly less association with our biological sex.
“I want to be FAABulous, but all I am is MAABulous”
Ben
Yeah, “transwoman” is the term my friend uses to refer to herself.
apostateCourier
I usually just use “trans,” if that level of classification is necessary- or if I really have to be specific I say transwoman. For day-to-day I just say I’m a woman. ‘Cause I am one.
Rusty
Kinda old, but maybe you’ll see this…
You look like Galasso to me.
MrZombieScordo
Galasso could be a woman. Galasso doesn’t really understand gender.
jbere
i really just want to make a saab joke right here
ultracar
Sedan Assigned At Birth
garaden
^Victory
Moose
Swedish Assigned At Birth
Lou Gagliardi
transwoman is what I use, until I find an appropriate name to use 😛
PIGGIE
I prefer AMAB (“assigned male …”) to MAAB just because it’s clearer when you pronounce it.
DarkVeghetta
Sounds like the MOBA vs ARTS debate. Eventually MOBA won because it just sounds better to most. Language sometimes goes the path of least resistance.
GUIGUI
Well, Genital Are important for gender identity. I mean, if it weren’t, Trans wouldn’t desire to change them in the first place. Genital are important for gender identity because many trans actually desire to modify them so that the gender of their genital fit the gender of their brain. It’s kind of a big issue.
K^2
Not really. I know at least one individual who identifies as a female, yet entirely happy with her male genitalia. I’m lead to understand that such a thing is not entirely uncommon. Identity itself is not just about your physical self. You can be ambivalent about it or even prefer the form that is opposite to your gender identity. Hence the comment that starts this branch of discussion.
GUIGUI
On the other hand, there are Trans who will kill themselves for not being born with the right set of genital. Seriously, the Trans Community is the one with one of the highest ratio of suicide (tough it’s also due to rejection by the family/community, but also caused by the feeling of body inadequacy).
So saying the gender of the genital is not important is far from being true for everyone.
K^2
Of course. But it’s not a contradiction with the above. Nobody said that genitals are never a factor. Just that a label which implies that they always are is misleading. So long as we accept the fact that there are exceptions either way, presented argument against MtF label follows.
Though, I would argue that any label is going to have such problems, but that’s a separate discussion. As somebody said earlier, whatever label an individual uses to self-identify, I’m happy with that.
Fey
As a non-op trans woman, I can definitely agree with K^2’s statements. Genital importance varies wildly in our community, from those who absolutely cannot stand the anatomy they were born with to people like me, who are totally fine with it, and had other issues with the sex they were assigned at birth.
Also, for the record, “trans” is an adjective (usually modifying man/woman/person or similar), not a noun. Referring to us as “a trans” or just “trans” in a manner such as in “…there are trans who…” is incorrect and potentially very offensive, depending on who you’re dealing with, because it is dehumanizing. We are trans women and trans men, along with the many shades of nonbinary trans people, not transwomen, transmen, or transpeople.
DarkVeghetta
^ “trans people” seems rather redundant, as we are all people. Hence why ‘trans’ is winning out in common parlance.
Not quite an adjective, really. Mostly because ‘trans’ isn’t a proper word in English, but slang – shorthand for that matter. Since it doesn’t have long-established parameters fencing it in, people tend to use it as they -think- is appropriate.
Funny thing though – the more it gets used a certain way, the more accepted it becomes by the general speaking public, which in turn may eventually lead to it becoming a official word fitting the perception most hold of it.
This is how a shorthand adjective can in time become a proper noun. It’s not there yet officially, but as far as most people are concerned, it is already there.
TL;DR: In common parlance “trans” = (newly formed) noun , “transgendered” = adjective.
PiGuy
@DarkVeghetta
1) “Not quite an adjective, really. Mostly because ‘trans’ isn’t a proper word in English, but slang – shorthand for that matter.”
Whether or not something is slang has no bearing on its usable syntax.
“Trans” is short for “transgender” (not “transgendered” by the way – it’s not a verb), which if you look it up in most any dictionary, turns out to be an adjective, not a noun. As a shortened version of the word, it shares the same syntactical significance and should thus be (and most commonly is) used as an adjective.
2) Yes, that is an explanation of how slang is incorporated into the “official” language pool, but you should listen to your own explanation. I don’t know where you got the idea that those are the “common parlance” terms – any dictionary (including urban dictionary – a slang hub) will show you the adjective definition of “trans” as a shortening of “transgender”.
3) You’re missing the main point here.
Syntactical significance, slang evolving into “official language,” and all else aside…
Calling someone “a trans” is offensive and is often used in a derogatory context. The poster before you clearly pointed this out, but you ignored their primary argument. The word “fag” is also a shorthand noun that has been accepted into common use. Does that mean it’s okay to use it regularly to refer to gay people? Nope! Because it’s offensive. Just because something is syntactically significant doesn’t mean you should use it.
SyntheticPhylum
There really is no hard and fast rule regarding the gender you identify as and the type of plumbing you keep between your legs, though many people in all sides of the Gender Identity Clusterfuck™ do try to assign rules! Take me, for example. Physically male, by preference bisexual, and by mentality somewhere between androgynous and hermaphroditic. I don’t know if that makes me generic genderqueer, or just strange, since all my “gender variances” are strictly internal.
Kennerly
I don’t think I have a mental gender either. I like girls and I’m physically male, and that’s always been my definition of straight male, but if that’s not accurate, I might as well be a lesbian woman. And if you believe in re-incarnation, who can say how many times I might have been and will be again female?
Arkantos
Where did you get a Spider Jerusalem Gravatar?
DarkVeghetta
Since there are no real futa irl, I’ve pretty much just went with ‘pansexual’ and called it a day. As for ‘internal gender variance’ – it’s a clusterfuck of rainbows, kittens, explosions and blood in there.
It all mixes into a hot gooey mess that is my psyche.
DarkVeghetta
To clarify: I’d be most attracted to futa, then women, then a very few select men. I’m not saying I’d be a futa… though… now that I mention it… excuse me, my penis is calling.
Also: “real […] irl” is redundant. Mah bad, it’s late.
Mat
just chiming in a couple days late to say that actually, whether or not genitals are important depends on the trans* person. I’m trans* and have no issue with my genitals. A dear friend of mine is trans* and as deep issues with dysphoria. It varies from person to person.
Jason
As a transman, I disagree that FtM/MtF are used solely to refer to genitalia. Personally, I would say “female to male” would refer to my life experiences and what I “lived as”. Whether I like it or not (obviously I don’t) I have experiences of living and being viewed as female, and that has been a large influence in shaping who I am.
But I’m more or less the opposite of “active in the trans* community”, so that’s just my thoughts.
Choosing to go by a female alias doesn’t necessarily tell us that they suffer from gender dysphoria or what their gender identity is, however, so I’m not assuming one thing or another about J. Brown the Second Child just yet.
Jason
…And then I hopped on the laptop to check the alt text. Damn Kindle not letting me see it!
Happy Fluffy Gamer
can someone PLEASE explain what the hell is going on and who is joceylin? is that joyce’s full name or something?
Joshi
The character that we were introduced to as Joshua, Joyce’s brother, identifies as a female, Jocelyne.
Revak
Y-You can read Webcomics on a kindle? But what about the colors?
And I feel your pain brother, my smartphone also hates alt-text ;-;
Toad
Probably one of the fancy full-color ones.
Jason
Yup! My fiance was given it a year ago, and at the time I believe it was quite new. It’s mostly used for the internet and to fuel his Angry Birds obsession- amusingly, I don’t think we’ve ever actually read a book on it.
The lack of alt text is a downer, but at least I can read stuff as he works or studies.
tahrey
Better, but as someone who’s been exposed to (…okay, this is gonna sound awkward but I’m low on both sugar and caffiene) this sorta thing for probably 15 years now, I can’t say I’ve ever heard any of those terms you use, so they might take a little more time to catch on.
For now, MtF / FtM is a reasonable descriptor is it not? It describes both their birth assignment and/or naturally expressed phenotype, and their mental gender / surgically and artificial-hormonally target/acquired phenotype in one easily written and understood package.
That said, I’m still confused here. Either we’re dealing with, ahem, a MaaB sibling who still fronts up as a male “Joshua” to their parents, but is actually Jocelyne in private/on the quiet – which I think is more likely* – or FaaB who was originally named Jocelyne but now passes for male, as “Josh”, full time.
* Clues: Parents and presumably Joyce also “don’t know very much”, and call “him” Josh, and accept the presented male (if still a touch effeminate – enough to trip Ethan’s gaydar) outlook without protest; and the site that s/he texted to Ethan – in preference to saying it out loud in front of Joyce – bears a generally female name…
Rokk
Since Joyce mentioned she was the only girl in one comic or the other, I’m’a go with ‘a MaaB sibling who still fronts up as a male “Joshua” to their parents, but is actually Jocelyne in private/on the quiet’ too
rachel
well, it’s important to not feel like one term is superior to another, especially if that superiority is based in length of time of use of said term. we’re always coming up with better descriptors, we humans, and it’s typically the people who those labels affect that decide, and that get to decide, not cisgendered people like myself! of course I do not know how you identify, but I am always trying to keep up on the kindest terminology out there to have as few barriers of communication between myself and those around me, in general!
DarkVeghetta
@tahrey Also MtF/FtM is shorter then MAAB/FAAB. Hence more pleasing to use in general. Rolls off the keyboard/tongue better too.
stevecharb
You know, I’m sympathetic to LGBTQ/”Alphabet Soup” issues, but maybe inventing and teaching a complicated new glossary of artificial PC vocabulary isn’t the best way to earn mainstream support.
Toad
Support shouldn’t have to be “earned.” People should be treated like people, regardless of their preferred lexicon. Heck, even if a group consists entirely of total jerks, they should still be treated like people, and that’s way worse than having a complex set of terminology to describe, as accurately as possible, one’s identity.
There’s a reason certain parts of the queer community use “ally” disparagingly.
TPRJones
Right, and no one should be racist and there should be no wars.
But that’s not the world we live in. It isn’t about should or shouldn’t, it’s about what will be most effective in making the world a better place.
Toad
If your criteria for granting people basic human rights is that they bend over backwards to make your life easier, then I can’t bring myself to care about what you think.
katzgoboom
^
Pat
Not going out of your way to fail at communication =/= bending over backwards to make someone else’s life easier.
Toad
Using accurate terminology to describe yourself =/= failing at communication.
Jason
It’s not about bending over backwards to do anything. The main reason for most prejudices is a lack of understanding. If you’re introducing so many terms and phrases that it seems like trying to read an advanced coding textbook and even trans* people often get lost, you’re not fostering understanding. By making it much harder to understand, you’re making it harder for the prejudice to die.
I never understood the need for fifteen different phrases. I am a man. I am also transsexual. If I ever need to explain this to someone (which seldom happens because it’s not their business), I call myself “a transsexual man”. People can identify with whatever label fits them, but if you want people to understand and accept aspects of you, you have to communicate in a way they can understand.
TPRJones
If your criteria for effective communication is accusing anyone that fails to perfectly digest your confusing, constantly changing, and inconsistent lexicon of terms as being homophobic, then I can’t bring myself to care about what you think either, Toad. But I’ll continue to try to make the world a better place despite your efforts to make it worse.
sd
In this case it’s more that they not bend over backwards to be a pain in the ass.
Toad
My point was not that the trans* lexicon, such as it is, is a shining example of effective communication. My point was that one ought not use effective communication as the metric by which to measure how many human rights are deserved. Refusing to support a minority group because they use confusing words is a pretty shitty example of “making the world a better place.”
You are arguing against a point I didn’t make, TPRJones. I never said that people who don’t perfectly use the language considered currently appropriate are homophobic or transphobic. I did say that refusing to support the cause of gay/queer/trans rights because they use too many acronyms, or are annoying sometimes, or whatever, is awful.
If you think a human rights cause is just, then you should support it. (At least passively; I don’t demand that anyone go out and protest for every single cause they theoretically support.) If every single member of some group was a total jerk, and they were being denied human rights, I’d still support them. That people think being confusing is a reasonable rationale for denying people rights is pretty disgusting.
Toad
@sd: People are people, even if they are a pain in the ass, and therefore deserve your support.
TPRJones
And just as equally you are arguing against a point I didn’t make, Toad. I never said that people who are unwilling to use effective communication don’t deserve human rights and equality under the law. I did say that if you throw a raging hissy fit every time someone doesn’t use exactly the right term you have chosen for yourself rather than attempt to actually communicate with them about these things they don’t understand, then you aren’t going to be changing anyone’s minds that way.
Toad
@TPRJones: Then you are arguing against a point I didn’t make. If you read the post of mine you initially responded to, you will see that I was objecting to people holding their “ally” status hostage over minority groups behaving the way they think they should. If you don’t disagree with me on that point, then why did you throw a “hissy fit” over a point I didn’t make? Remember, you responded disparagingly to me in the first place, not the other way around.
TPRJones
Actually I was defending stevecharb’s point that winning support by attacking someone for failing to understand complex and relatively arbitrary terminology is not a practical expectation. Neither he nor I said that it was therefor valid to treat people as less than human, that was your assumption that you added – rather insultingly, I might add – to the conversation.
Clearly this is getting us nowhere. I give up. You go ahead and keep shitting on everyone around you and hoping that might make them change their minds. Good luck with that.
Rutee
There’s a lot of words for trans people. There’s also a lot of words for angry people. There are a lot of words for happy people. Communicating well means learning a large vocabulary, period.
Toad
@TPRJones: stevecharb’s original post said nothing about anyone being attacked; it was specifically about “inventing and teaching” a bunch of terms. Your initial response to my criticism was sarcasm. You quickly escalated to claiming that I was actively trying to make the world a worse place, throwing a hissy fit, and shitting on everyone around me. I fail to see how that makes me the one who’s being insulting. (Or, for that matter, the one behaving as you claimed I was.)
I said that it was not acceptable to treat people as less than human for describing themselves in a complex manner. I did not even say that stevecharb said that it was acceptable. When you angrily disagreed with my post, I assumed you therefore disagreed with the contents of that post, and responded accordingly.
Freemage
If your ‘support’ is unable to include the learning of a few terms, it may be a good idea to re-evaluate the value you think those communities should assign to it.
Toad
Ding ding ding! Freemage gets it.
Terrible Name
Its not a few terms though. Its an inconsistent ever changing dictionary of terms, some of which are preferred by some while others are seen as offensive by the same community. I can deal with individual people, but I can’t deal with the trans ‘community’ because I can’t get through their layers of terminology. Even my transsexual friends have problems with what the term of the week is, and the ‘community’ can apparently get pretty caustic about it even with trans* people.
I call people whatever they identify as, provided they stay within the boundaries of english (xie is stupid). I do not care what is in their pants, unless its of burning importance to them that I know, and then I usually tell them Id rather not have known.
Toad
That’s a fine complaint. The terminology is inconsistent and confusing. That’s an issue that should be addressed. Denying a group your support because its members can’t agree on what they want to be called is pretty atrocious. People aren’t taking umbrage with someone saying “your usage of terms is confusing;” the problem is that people hold their “ally” status hostage over it. Phrases like “you’re making it really hard for me to support you right now!” and “if you want me to support you, you should just make it less confusing for me” are all too common. Being confused is acceptable; no one denies that the lexicon has gotten a bit confusing. Denying a group of people fundamental human rights because they all describe themselves with different acronyms is pretty messed up.
davidbreslin101
“….the problem is that people hold their “ally” status hostage over it.” You’ve spelled out something which has often bothered me about these arguments without me quite being able to put my finger on it. Thanks! (And actually, most LGBTQ etc people I know seem pretty tolerant of well-intentioned fumblings with the terminology. Though that could just be low expectations.)
TPRJones
“Phrases like “you’re making it really hard for me to support you right now!” and “if you want me to support you, you should just make it less confusing for me” are all too common”
Well, that’s just people being assholes. Tell them to stop being assholes.
Look, it doesn’t matter who a person is, they deserve equal rights under the law and the opportunity to pursue their own life goals as best they can. If someone will not support the rights of even their worst and most hated enemy, then they have failed at freedom and clearly don’t understand the basic responsibilities of being a citizen. Or maybe they are just douche-nozzles. That’s also possible.
All that having been said, all too many times I’ve seen some poor schmuck who doesn’t understand LGBTQ issues but is trying to be supportive being viciously attacked because he used the wrong pronoun. If he’s not a douche he’s not going to then “withdraw support” because he would know that even assholes deserve equality. But he’s less likely to actively go out of his way to champion the cause than he was before.
Some people in the trenches of this war need to realize that attacking everyone indiscriminately when they don’t use the proper gender passwords of the week doesn’t make things better.
Toad
Sure, TPRJones, I’ll agree with you on those points. I was writing about the assholes who like to imagine they’re paragons of tolerance while demanding that queer people do XYZ thing in order for them to be willing to support them. I suspect you read my criticism of those people as a criticism of genuinely well-meaning but confused allies.
Ash
TRPJones has it dead on.
Toad, you’re missing the fundamental problem, which is that yes, it’s one thing if someone says “hey, I prefer you call me ____” but it’s total complete asshattery to blow up at people who make an assumption that would be valid 97% of the time when you haven’t even told them in the first place. Being part of a minority group does not, last time I checked, confer powers of telepathic projection (if it does, mine must’ve got lost in the mail, the jerks), so it’s really illogical to expect other people to know every nuance of our existence.
Toad
@Ash: I agree with everything in your post except the part where you implied that I ever disagreed with anything you just said. Honest mistakes are just that, honest mistakes, and should be treated as such. Demanding that queer people stick to the terms that straight people prefer to make it easier on “allies” is what I was taking exception to in my posts.
Toad
Oh, and I’m going to assume that you have no objection to “google” being used as a term for “internet search,” so why is “xe” any different? Language changes. Some language is intentionally invented. Some of it occurs “organically.” None of it is passed down from like, mischievous river spirits or something.
It’s no hardship to you to call someone “xe” instead of “it,” if they specifically ask you to, so why not?