Her scale is gonna start sliding depending on whether or not she’s around Joyce or Alice. This will make Alice decide Joyce is her enemy. Joyce won’t realize this. Alice’s preferred method of attack is looking better in a leather jacket.
If you make a movie with two ladies in it, and all they do is talk about men, your movie fails the Bechamel Test, which means it’s bland and cheesy.
Scotch
The kitchen pedant in me has to point out that a true bechamel sauce only contains butter, flour and milk. Perhaps some nutmeg, pepper and salt to taste. No cheese!
I know you are joking, but I still want to nitpick and say the Bechdel test says that the discussion shouldn’t be ABOUT a guy, not that no guys should be mentioned ever.
This conversation would pass either way, because the actual original Bechdel test, as explained in the comic by Allison Bechdel, was about how alienating mainstream media is for lesbians.
The idea is that to pass the test, your movie has to contain even one scene where a lesbian doesn’t feel completely alienated, because she can at least pretend the two female characters in question might not be completely 100% heterosexual.
This strip would pass even if Joe was the main topic of conversation for a few panels, because the last panel reaffirms that Joyce and Jennifer have both had sex with women.
Theory: Joyce considers things with Joe mostly wrapped up. Sure, she said they’ll talk, but she meant it more in a “we’ll see each other in bio class and can continue this conversation then” sort of way, or in a “I dumped you but I don’t want you to feel like you can’t see me ever again” sort of way. She did not mean to take back the “I have to break up with you”. As far as she is concerned, her and Joe are over. She is curious about polyamory but that doesn’t mean the dumping didn’t happen.
If Joyce thought she and Joe were over, she would have said no to the polyamory idea.
Joyce is many things but not ambiguous.
Minivet
I agree her being clearer in response would have been better, but she did literally say they were breaking up and didn’t take that back. Does she have to reject every variant of “what if we didn’t break up” Joe proposes to keep her Morality Meter full?
I will not do it as a couple,
I will not do it as a throuple,
I will not date you in the rain,
I will not date you in Fort Wayne.
With Dorothy I’m all aglow,
I’ve broken with you, Joe, just go!
thejeff
It’s not about her “morality meter”, it’s about us trying to figure out what she’s thinking. Some of us see enough clues to make us think she’s at least tempted by the idea.
Worse theory: Joyce is going to be completely blindsided by how devastated Joe was by her actions, because last time she spoke to him he seemed to be fine with it.
I honestly don’t know why anyone thinks this or why the consensus view in these comments is that that’s all done and wrapped up. I certainly believe that Joyce is *avoiding* it because it’s painful and difficult to have that conversation (no matter what direction it ends up going) but that’s not at all the same as “Joyce thinks it’s all done and wrapped” and certainly not the same as anyone *else* thinking it’s all done and wrapped.
Honestly, I hope it’s Joever because I dread the prospect of a polyamory plotline. Much better to have a clean break and see Joe get with someone who actually fucking cares about him.
Honestly, I’m glad that she still seems to have hangups about Joe. My biggest worry was that Willis was intentionally ditching that plotline entirely, but I think it’s clear looking at her expressions, how she’s phrasing things, that she subconsciously feels bad about the way she treated Joe, but doesn’t want to confront it.
Possibly related to her cognitive dissonance? We can only hope.
She desperately wants to stay in her happy horny fairy tale where she gets to have lots of great sex with her True Love, the future Mrs. Dorothy Keener-Brown.
Just looking at her face and the phrasing in that panel though, I think Joe is someone she really does want to talk to about this. There’s something more complex going on there than even in the panel where she mentions Becky.
Go talk to Joe and become polyamorous and then talk about sex with Dorothy. Hearing about your partners having experiences with other people is such a wonderful thing because you get to see a version of them that they aren’t when they’re with you. And it’s very special having that kind of access.
Probably don’t talk to Joe about it if you plan on breaking up with him though, yeah. That would be in poor taste.
clif
She says Joe is off the table because she’s already broken up with him. ?
eh, whatever
No, it’s specifically because she’s afraid of how he’d react to that specifically.
Adept
That is a bizarre read clif.
apocryphascribe
Bizarre but nevertheless extremely common among the readership.
Adept
I know. It keeps weirding me out. It’s also a little depressing, in what it says about us in general. People really see what they want to see in works like this.
Which is fine, but then stating it in full confidence is another matter.
Kreiger
I keep reading these comments and seeing all these people talk about Poly as if its a Thing That Happens A Lot In Real Life, and its really really not.
I think Joyce cheated on Joe with Dorothy and whether its a writer quirk or a Joyce quirk, its just kind of being pushed under the rug like not a huge deal, but it definitely made me think waaaaay less of Joyce as a person and I hate that Joe might choke down the betrayal for the chance to have any scraps of the person he fell in love with.
AK
In general, statistically, you are correct. It is not very common. This is not, however, a situation in which that fact is relevant, because it’s been explicitly proposed here by a person who has been more subtly proposing it for a long time, and who actively matchmade his girlfriend and her girlfriend. Like. I kinda think poly has Been his endgame for a little while. This doesn’t mean he isn’t hurt that Joyce has made it clear he’d come second or worried that she won’t be interested at all, but like. Cmon. He wingmanned this shit actively.
To some people. And we are real. Cheating is just Not That Big A Deal as relationship violations go. Like it’s a symptom of a problem that needs to be solved either via work or relationship dissolution, same way a lot of bad partner behaviors are. But it’s not a crazy betrayal. I understand this isn’t normal, but like. Fuck normal. What’s relevant is how the people involved feel about it. And we have a decent amount of evidence regarding how the people involved in this instance feel about it, and an awful lot of people seem like they want to find reasons to ignore that evidence because of the ways it makes the situation not normal. And I just wanna say. Guys.
What do you think “queer” means?
not someone else
It REALLY depends on what sort of people one hangs out with In Real Life.
apocryphascribe
@AK I’m only really responding to this bit here
“To some people, cheating is just Not That Big A Deal as relationship violations go”
You’re not wrong! The problem is that Joe is not one of those people. It has been established pretty concretely over several real time years of strips that Joe has a near-pathological hatred of infidelity. It is his berserk button, the one thing you could do as a person to make him immediately think less of you. And so to have that character – the only one of his kind in the strip, mind you! – be cheated on by his first love, and to have his reaction be so muted and regular-ass heartbreak level is not just boring and dull, but actively breaks suspension of disbelief. To have the only character in the main cast with infidelity-related trauma, insecurities, and hangups react maturely in the face of being cheated on is just…why bother giving him those qualities at all if they’re not relevant when they’d matter the most? Why bother having him be cheated on at all if you aren’t going to use that to explore and exploit what makes him unique among the cast? It all feels so completely pointless.
291 thoughts on “Commiserate”
Doctor_Who
Joyce is a catalyst that is slowly causing Dorothy and Jennifer to switch places on the Kinsey scale.
Pocky
I give it 5 minutes before she slips back down that scale when she sees Alice again.
Yumi
Her scale is gonna start sliding depending on whether or not she’s around Joyce or Alice. This will make Alice decide Joyce is her enemy. Joyce won’t realize this. Alice’s preferred method of attack is looking better in a leather jacket.
EpochFlame
damn straight
AlexanderHammil
well, not straight
thejeff
Definitely straight.
Just likes girls sometimes. You know, like everyone does.
Yet_One_More_Idiot
Not damn straight. Damn curvy!
QueenofSodor
joe mentioned!!! sadly this means the bechdel test is failed. rain of meteors
Taffy
The Bechdel Test is when you admit men exist.
QueenofSodor
exactly, whenever anybody mentions men for any reason it summons a rain of meteors
Dean
I believe the Weather Girls released a song discussing that very subject.
Needfuldoer
That song and Bodies by Drowning Pool are about the same event.
Qube
I’m partial to Tear Away, myself
Astariel
So that’s why it’s been looking so apocalyptic lately.
Dara
I thought that was Homestuck.
zee
Well I missed the geminid shower so should I just start yelling MEN from the top of my lungs tonight?
Nymph
By contrast, the Bechamel Test is when you admit pasta exists.
Yotomoe
And the Beck test is when you admit Experimental Alt Rock exists.
Yet_One_More_Idiot
While the Beckham test is when you admit football exists.
John Campbell
If you make a movie with two ladies in it, and all they do is talk about men, your movie fails the Bechamel Test, which means it’s bland and cheesy.
Scotch
The kitchen pedant in me has to point out that a true bechamel sauce only contains butter, flour and milk. Perhaps some nutmeg, pepper and salt to taste. No cheese!
Taffy
Fuck nutmeg. Delete that garbage from the planet ASAP.
Plonker
Mmmm… Nutmeg…
eh, whatever
You will take that back.
Taffy
No, not a chance.
Agemegos
Yes! White sauce with cheese is Mornay, not Bechamel.
Stormcaller3801
When the sauce hits your eye like a big 4-cheese pie, that’s a Mornay
John Campbell
Take it up with Lottie.
Laura
??
Olofa
And the Baruchel test is when two named characters have a conversation about something other than dragons.
Cameron Stone
Allison Bechdel is really regretting making that comic right now, y’know more than usual.
Risky
The Bechdel Test is when you have a potluck bbq and it fails if everyone arrives with nothing but relish.
NickPG
Deep ‘DTWOF’ cut.
Pappenheimer
So the Beckett Test is whether four guys can have a conversation without going off to kill the Archbishop of Canterbury?
yak
Truley one of the worst sins a writer can make
aelfwine
I know you are joking, but I still want to nitpick and say the Bechdel test says that the discussion shouldn’t be ABOUT a guy, not that no guys should be mentioned ever.
Li
This conversation would pass either way, because the actual original Bechdel test, as explained in the comic by Allison Bechdel, was about how alienating mainstream media is for lesbians.
The idea is that to pass the test, your movie has to contain even one scene where a lesbian doesn’t feel completely alienated, because she can at least pretend the two female characters in question might not be completely 100% heterosexual.
This strip would pass even if Joe was the main topic of conversation for a few panels, because the last panel reaffirms that Joyce and Jennifer have both had sex with women.
Dot
Joyce is just strangling the part of her brain that’s trying to remind her she has a conversation she needs to have with Joe huh
Pocky
one brain fart later, she’s talkin to girl Joe. . . I mean Roz lol
TheMormegil
Theory: Joyce considers things with Joe mostly wrapped up. Sure, she said they’ll talk, but she meant it more in a “we’ll see each other in bio class and can continue this conversation then” sort of way, or in a “I dumped you but I don’t want you to feel like you can’t see me ever again” sort of way. She did not mean to take back the “I have to break up with you”. As far as she is concerned, her and Joe are over. She is curious about polyamory but that doesn’t mean the dumping didn’t happen.
EpochFlame
that’s even worse
C.T Phipps
If Joyce thought she and Joe were over, she would have said no to the polyamory idea.
Joyce is many things but not ambiguous.
Minivet
I agree her being clearer in response would have been better, but she did literally say they were breaking up and didn’t take that back. Does she have to reject every variant of “what if we didn’t break up” Joe proposes to keep her Morality Meter full?
I will not do it as a couple,
I will not do it as a throuple,
I will not date you in the rain,
I will not date you in Fort Wayne.
With Dorothy I’m all aglow,
I’ve broken with you, Joe, just go!
thejeff
It’s not about her “morality meter”, it’s about us trying to figure out what she’s thinking. Some of us see enough clues to make us think she’s at least tempted by the idea.
shepsquared
Worse theory: Joyce is going to be completely blindsided by how devastated Joe was by her actions, because last time she spoke to him he seemed to be fine with it.
eh, whatever
The whole conversation was broken off in the middle. You treat it as complete instead.
Lucretiel
I honestly don’t know why anyone thinks this or why the consensus view in these comments is that that’s all done and wrapped up. I certainly believe that Joyce is *avoiding* it because it’s painful and difficult to have that conversation (no matter what direction it ends up going) but that’s not at all the same as “Joyce thinks it’s all done and wrapped” and certainly not the same as anyone *else* thinking it’s all done and wrapped.
Grimeyville
It’s Joever, I fear.
Mitzi B.
Honestly, I hope it’s Joever because I dread the prospect of a polyamory plotline. Much better to have a clean break and see Joe get with someone who actually fucking cares about him.
Thag Simmons
I’m just glad we’re finally getting to see that! Feels like she’s needed moments like this
AshleyMagica
Honestly, I’m glad that she still seems to have hangups about Joe. My biggest worry was that Willis was intentionally ditching that plotline entirely, but I think it’s clear looking at her expressions, how she’s phrasing things, that she subconsciously feels bad about the way she treated Joe, but doesn’t want to confront it.
Possibly related to her cognitive dissonance? We can only hope.
Jay
I still worry Willis is going to intentionally ditch the plotline with an extremely brief and unsatisfying conclusion
StClair
She desperately wants to stay in her happy horny fairy tale where she gets to have lots of great sex with her True Love, the future Mrs. Dorothy Keener-Brown.
thejeff
Just looking at her face and the phrasing in that panel though, I think Joe is someone she really does want to talk to about this. There’s something more complex going on there than even in the panel where she mentions Becky.
Jay
Willis certainly is trying to forget Joe has plot rn
Taffy
“Fine, you convinced me. I’ll fuck Dorothy with you.”
Doctor_Who
Dorothy arrives with Becky to ask for a big favor, and that’s how the campus gets a new polycule.
AbacusWizard
If this keeps up eventually campus will BE a polycule.
Nymph
Everyone always promises this, but it never happens.
clif
And yet Taffy fills me with hope.
Pocky
inching ever closer to the fuck pile.
Acher4
Plot Twist!!!
(after all Jennifer has expressed before that she finds Dorothy a hottie.)
AK
Go talk to Joe about it, Joyce.
Doctor_Who
I mean, go talk to Joe, but not about having sex with Dorothy specifically. Talk about other stuff.
Maybe if he takes it well you can give him a few details as a treat.
AK
Go talk to Joe and become polyamorous and then talk about sex with Dorothy. Hearing about your partners having experiences with other people is such a wonderful thing because you get to see a version of them that they aren’t when they’re with you. And it’s very special having that kind of access.
Probably don’t talk to Joe about it if you plan on breaking up with him though, yeah. That would be in poor taste.
clif
She says Joe is off the table because she’s already broken up with him. ?
eh, whatever
No, it’s specifically because she’s afraid of how he’d react to that specifically.
Adept
That is a bizarre read clif.
apocryphascribe
Bizarre but nevertheless extremely common among the readership.
Adept
I know. It keeps weirding me out. It’s also a little depressing, in what it says about us in general. People really see what they want to see in works like this.
Which is fine, but then stating it in full confidence is another matter.
Kreiger
I keep reading these comments and seeing all these people talk about Poly as if its a Thing That Happens A Lot In Real Life, and its really really not.
I think Joyce cheated on Joe with Dorothy and whether its a writer quirk or a Joyce quirk, its just kind of being pushed under the rug like not a huge deal, but it definitely made me think waaaaay less of Joyce as a person and I hate that Joe might choke down the betrayal for the chance to have any scraps of the person he fell in love with.
AK
In general, statistically, you are correct. It is not very common. This is not, however, a situation in which that fact is relevant, because it’s been explicitly proposed here by a person who has been more subtly proposing it for a long time, and who actively matchmade his girlfriend and her girlfriend. Like. I kinda think poly has Been his endgame for a little while. This doesn’t mean he isn’t hurt that Joyce has made it clear he’d come second or worried that she won’t be interested at all, but like. Cmon. He wingmanned this shit actively.
To some people. And we are real. Cheating is just Not That Big A Deal as relationship violations go. Like it’s a symptom of a problem that needs to be solved either via work or relationship dissolution, same way a lot of bad partner behaviors are. But it’s not a crazy betrayal. I understand this isn’t normal, but like. Fuck normal. What’s relevant is how the people involved feel about it. And we have a decent amount of evidence regarding how the people involved in this instance feel about it, and an awful lot of people seem like they want to find reasons to ignore that evidence because of the ways it makes the situation not normal. And I just wanna say. Guys.
What do you think “queer” means?
not someone else
It REALLY depends on what sort of people one hangs out with In Real Life.
apocryphascribe
@AK I’m only really responding to this bit here
“To some people, cheating is just Not That Big A Deal as relationship violations go”
You’re not wrong! The problem is that Joe is not one of those people. It has been established pretty concretely over several real time years of strips that Joe has a near-pathological hatred of infidelity. It is his berserk button, the one thing you could do as a person to make him immediately think less of you. And so to have that character – the only one of his kind in the strip, mind you! – be cheated on by his first love, and to have his reaction be so muted and regular-ass heartbreak level is not just boring and dull, but actively breaks suspension of disbelief. To have the only character in the main cast with infidelity-related trauma, insecurities, and hangups react maturely in the face of being cheated on is just…why bother giving him those qualities at all if they’re not relevant when they’d matter the most? Why bother having him be cheated on at all if you aren’t going to use that to explore and exploit what makes him unique among the cast? It all feels so completely pointless.