345

Apostate
Posted on February 2, 2022 by David M Willis

345 thoughts on “Apostate”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    Dina’s feeling nothing like

    https://twitter.com/em_aytch/status/1478553361834143746

    nope

  2. The Wellerman

    me too Dina. ?

    Anyway, is anyone here celebrating the Lunar New Year somehow?

    1. Doctor_Who

      I…bought some games in the correlating Steam sale? That count?

      1. The Wellerman

        Sure!

        Imma paint moons on my face while watching classic Sailor Moon!!! ? ?

        1. Psychie

          Sub or dub? ‘Cause, like, for some reason I feel like the version where instead of lesbians those two are “cousins” is more appropriate right now, in like, a funny way. Like, a so bad it’s hilarious way. Not, like, generally more appropriate, though, a lot of times the way the creators intended is the more appropriate way, but for whatever reason in this particular moment, the bad dub with weird censoring just feels “right”, if you catch my drift. No idea why, though, it just does.

        2. Deanatay

          Don’t forget to integrate a tiger, somehow!

        3. Delicious Taffy

          Tigers are made up. They were never real.

      2. Illithid

        I did the Lunar Event missions in Deep Rock Galactic on Steam.
        And now I know why that was a thing.

        1. Ron

          Rock and Stone!

        2. Nova

          For Karl!

      3. Michael L

        Did you buy Vampire Survivors? Best game for $3 you’ll ever buy. Insane entertainment value for money. I’ve put 30 hours into it already. For $3!

    2. not someone else

      I am celebrating by proxy of social media acquaintances and the huge event in my favorite Hong Kong-based mobile game?

      1. Rabbit

        Strange question, but is it called Time Princess?

    3. Jamie

      I’m listening to people set off firecrackers at midnight.

      Fortunately, I am terrible at going to bed before midnight.

      1. Otl1973

        That’s generally the case on Diwali around here, but (perhaps oddly) not on Lunar New Year. It’s a moderately diverse area – I’d think there would be celebrants of both around.

    4. brionl

      My wife made noodles & dim sum for dinner today. She says it’s lucky to eat noodles on the new year for a long life.

      1. mrnoidea

        On a tangent, seems like 99% of the ramen section has been empty at ever grocery store I’ve been to the last few…months? Could’ve been weeks, but it feels like months.

        1. mrnoidea

          *”every”, not ever, good non-existent lord

        2. sultryglebe

          Can’t find chicken, but there is still a lot of beef and shrimp.

      2. Laura

        We got pan-Asian fusion takeout. Yum!
        I pretended fried tofu were dumplings, for good luck, since no dumplings were available.
        We did get drunken noodles, though, for good luck, but were too full to eat them!

    5. Delicious Taffy

      Considering I’m not Asian and don’t know any Asian people (small towns rule btw), and I don’t wanna just co-opt any real traditions or order Chinese food to be performative…… We’re just gonna watch Frozen 2 and celebrate Ms. Taffy’s birthday.

      1. Delicious Taffy

        (Oops forgot to put a big throbbing veiny /s on that other parenthetical. Small towns suck and there’s no diversity here.)

      2. The Wellerman

        Well tell Ms. Taffy I said Happy Birthday!!! ? ?

    6. Rose Red

      Did some stuff with family over the weekend. Nothing much last night. I still can’t cook fish and make it taste good.

    7. Stifyn Baker

      Not Lunar New Year, no. But a Blessed Imbolc to you all.

      1. Agemegos

        Candlemas, too.

    8. Reltzik

      Nothing tonight, but tomorrow I’m going to use superstitious divining techniques to discern when winter’s going to end.

      1. Delicious Taffy

        February 12th. Summer will start the following Saturday.

        1. Reltzik

          SPOILERS! How dare you tell me how the magic would play out? I wanted to see a natural unfolding to the dramatic thawmaturgy!

        2. Some Ed

          I find your latitude and longitude ignoring prediction to likely not match weather patterns everywhere. Admittedly, I have no idea whether Relzik’s techniques would consider those or not.

          I was about to guess that they wouldn’t, but then noted that if they were intending on using the standard superstitious divining technique, they’d have probably done it already.

        3. Delicious Taffy

          Oh, it wasn’t a prediction. It was a threat. >:)

        4. Reltzik

          … so long as it isn’t a HOT summer I won’t suffer too much…

        5. Reltzik

          Given that the groundhog in Puxsutwany says six more weeks of winter, and the one at NYC says it’ll be an early spring, it appears that this method DOES take local variation into account.

        6. King Daniel

          And the one in New Jersey just died instead. What does that portend?

        7. Chris

          A very localized nuclear winter.

        8. Reltzik

          If a groundhog’s ghost looks in the mirror, does it see its shade?

    9. Meagan

      Went over to a friend’s house who had a bunch of guests and dinner. I wasn’t feeling well and laid down in the bedroom. It’s good to have friends who let you be in the designated quiet room (with a cat) at parties.

    10. Max

      I’m living in Taiwan so there have been fireworks up the wazoo. Probably even more than usual because people can’t go anywhere abroad without a 2-week quarantine on return. I miss traveling.

    11. maarvarq

      Me too, apart from Hillsong being a very bad word round here, since Australia acquired a member of their cult as Prime Minister, hopefully not for very much longer.

      1. Arian

        Regrettably, the *Deputy* PM is my local Federal member. And also regrettably, my single vote for someone else is very unlikely to evict him. I definitely should move.

        1. maarvarq

          Find a marginal seat, like one of the Sports Rorts ones 🙂

    12. milu

      started the Mandarin course on Duolingo =)

    13. poofdepoof

      Wore my “Phenomenally Asian” shirt without realizing that it was sort of calendar relevant. ?

    14. JBento

      The only real holiday on February is Chocolate Discount Day, on the 15th.

      1. Needfuldoer

        The spring chocolate discount equinox!

        (The fall chocolate discount equinox is November 1st.)

    15. Needfuldoer

      I started re-reading Calvin and Hobbes again.

  3. Thag Simmons

    This should be fine.

  4. butts

    :^|

  5. ThunderNight

    It’s always the long-haired dudes

  6. Yumi

    I have a friend who at least used to go to one of churches with the contemporary acoustic (sometimes) music. My other friend and I both didn’t care for such music, but for different reasons. She thought religious music should be more traditional and I guess somber in tone, and I thought putting in all the God stuff was ruining perfectly good music.

    1. Yotomoe

      It’s kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation with me. Cuz gospel music bores me, there’s like maybe 2 that I actually like. And then there’s contemporary acoustic which, as you said, are good songs ruined by the god parts.

      1. The Wellerman

        Does the Binding of Isaac soundtrack count as gospel music?

        1. alongcameaspider

          Only Dogma’s boss music I think

          https://youtu.be/bQp2ylaedn4

        2. The Wellerman

          This is really good, yeah >:)

    2. Jamie

      My friends at church were the music nerds. I’d stay behind after worship and and help them put away the equipment. There was also a choir, but that was for those stuffy adults. My mom did it for a bit.

      I’d agree on the god bits ruining perfectly good music, frankly. Like, the worst part of worship is that once you’ve memorized how to sing it, your brain can spend the entire time analyzing the lyrics. It’s not a fun time. (I adapted by learning to get out of my own head for it, which was useful.)

      1. Otl1973

        There is a whole lotta classical music that isn’t ruined by the god bits. Of course, most of the “lyrics” aren’t in English, so that might help.

    3. khn0

      I’m at loss with what “contemporary acoustic music” is as a genre… Is there even non acoustic performed music? I mean amplification is also an acoustic phenomenon right? Contemporary I can almost get even it if it’s misleading (classical music made during the time people thought was history peak, so after WWII, some of it done now still being contemporary bc post-contemporary would be silly and postmodernism is out of date). Some of it can be played by non amplified instruments, ofc, but I have hard time believing. Apologies, I have a hard time believing you would have this kind of music in a church service.
      So what is it?

      1. milu

        Yo, aren’t you being a bit obtuse?

        these words also have colloquial meanings. “acoustic” music tends to involve acoustic guitars and other non-electric instruments, whether amplified or not.

        “contemporary” in this case probably just means “not old-fashioned”.

        So, something like that, i’d imagine. Except with a long-haired dude

        1. khn0

          yes, I am, a bit voluntarily, bc I can’t understand what it says about the music itself… and then i really don’t know what it is…

          I mean that could go from ukulele My chemical romance, to acoustic grindcore (it exists), while being also possible that it is concrete music, minimalist marimba music, classical, barock, medieval, romantic, modern occidental music, so-called “world music” (which is a colonial but practical way to say genres are often west-centric),pop music, unplugged nirvana, bob dylan, merle haggard, some version of Eluveitie, gypsy swing (that’d be cool), kazoo, vuvuzela, Ligeti’s concerto for metronomes, Mitch Harris humming while cooking, Mick Harris humming while fishing, monks hummings, hymnels humming wait no not this one…

          So I’ll look at what you posted to really get a hint (sound disabled on this computer), thank you for posting it.

      2. Sam

        It would just be music on a non-electric instrument in a modern style of playing with some God lyrics thrown on top. If you know any nice acoustic guitar songs from recent years, just imagine that but with God Appreciation lyrics.

        It sounds like you are overthinking the exact words used.

        1. khn0

          well it’s like you have someone describing you a landscape by “it’s countryside”.
          I assure you I am not overthinking right now
          I have no clue what it is, I lack the cultural background (never went to church) + I am way too used of people saying “I listen to all kind of music” meaning charts, which are not acoustic (I think, I try to avoid it as much as possible)

    4. The Quirk

      The only time I heard religious choir music was in Chorus class. We sang all the hymns. This was in a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Of course, it was Oklahoma in the 70’s, which explains a lot.

  7. Bagge

    I love the occasional status updates from Dina

  8. Suet

    *replaces Doge’s bat with possibly a cross*

    Surely there’s hardly any key changes at all, or else someone’s just singing Jeff Buckley

  9. Kirtro

    Joyce is a runaway mage?

  10. jmsr7

    I’m feelin’ the Dina more than usual.

    1. Thag Simmons

      Dina Best Character, so it has been, so it shall remain.

      1. Hilobird

        So much time on Reddit, i was mad the upvote was hidden

  11. Elle L

    Hey my sister and I were just talking about this. You can’t trust churches with pop bands, or 7 words that repeat 11 times. I feel validated being not the only one who made this connection.

    1. drs

      > 7 words that repeat 11 times

      I *knew* Handel’s Messiah was sus.

      1. khn0

        Is Einstein on the beach better or worse then?

      2. Arian

        I love “Messiah”, but *giggles at your quip*

    2. Hilobird

      Never drink a beer with four names. Guinness? yes. Bud Lite Dry Ice? c”mon man

      1. Ed Callahan

        Don’t drink beer that Lite in its name.

    3. BadRoad

      Or songs that rhyme a word with itself. That’s just a naked cash-grab.

      1. khn0

        Oh I have this song I’m obsessed with and can’t get out of my head whenever I hear it, precisely because of the rhyming.
        Itw orks:
        verse 1 and verse 2 doesn’t rhyme
        verse 3 andverse 4 has that rhyme with itself thing
        Also verse 1 has an internal rhyme and verse 2 is too long, the singer has to clumsily speed his diction
        It drives me mad, my brain can’t process not trying to make it better.
        And it’s a song about the singer owning an enterprise and complaining about his staff making it close, so there IS ni way the song could be good anyway.
        The horror. The horror.

        1. milu

          Francky Vincent Le Restaurant??? XD

          incomparable. iconique. un monument.

        2. khn0

          I don’t know how you got it in one. Am I cursed or is the song cursed?

    4. Needfuldoer

      But it takes a lot of words, a whole lot of rhymin’ words, it’s gonna take so many words to do it, to do it, to do it, do it, to do it, to do it right.

      1. Freemage

        I have hated that song since the first time I heard it.

        1. Needfuldoer

          Eh, I can take it or leave it. It’s no Sympathy for the Devil, that’s for damn sure. (Seriously that sing is so friggin annoying! It’s just “hoop whoo! hoop whoo!” for five minutes. Why.)

      2. Wizard

        This song is just Six Words Long.

    5. smolgrlboi

      your instincts were totally not wrong, I was always kind of sus too in a “too good to be true” sort of way. turns out evangelists have been co-opting the hipster/hippie/whatever style makes you seem “cool” and “chill” for a while to lure people in with the false idea that they’re more welcoming than they really are. I’m sure there’s perfectly nice people out there who aren’t homophobes and also like Hillsong, but I think it was *purposefully* made to appear more progressive than it actually was in order to recruit more members, disguise their conservatism, and make their evangelical bs seem more palatable and “hip”.

      1. Arian

        I agree. I wouldn’t trust Hillsong as far as I could kick them.

  12. Thag Simmons

    Key changes are great though. Everyone loves a good key change.

    1. carl320

      As a bass player in a worship team, a key change and a pedal tone is like heaven

    2. Yotomoe

      If I was a rock star it’d have so many key changes it would be redundant. “What key are we in?” “ALL OF THEM.”

      1. Schpoonman

        Second coming of Frank Zappa, sweet. Trying to parse all of his music at once is too much, I think I can handle sequential releases, though.

        1. Needfuldoer

          Start with Strictly Commercial, then move on to Joe’s Garage, etc. Gotta work your way up to his more dense compilations.

          Throw his deposition to the Parents Music Resource Center in there somewhere, it’s a treat. (Dee Snider’s, too. They thought they were going to get an easy win over some fried rock n’ roll clowns…)

        2. Wizard

          Gotta respect a man who managed to get a parental warning sticker on an album of instrumentals.

      2. Bicycle Bill

        A good solid barbershop quartet can also do chord changes that could almost qualify as a religious experience too.  They can crush and hold a four-part chord, then tweak it and bend it into another key – while passing through about three other keys in the process of getting where they finally want to go – and if it’s done correctly it’s enough to raise the hairs on your forearms and send shivers up your spine.

        1. Thag Simmons

          Vocal harmonies are a great force multiplier when used properly.

    3. Hof1991

      It goes like this
      The fourth, the fifth
      The minor fall, the major lift

      1. milu

        that’s not a key change (unless you count modulating back and forth between the relative major and minor keys), THAT’s a key change.

  13. BigDogLittleCat

    Ironically, a lot of baptist churches are dropping “baptist” from their name because thanks to their homophobic hatefulness it’s almost synonymous with bigotry.

    1. Jamie

      I hadn’t heard about this! Can you tell me any more about it? I’m not really even sure what to google to find out more, though I’m gonna try it now.

      1. Jamie

        Nevermind, the first thing I tried turned up AP news items from 1999 until 2018.

        Not really impressed by the guy citing Westboro as his reason for changing the name in 2018. Like, you know Phelps is dead, right?

        1. Segnosaur

          Phelphs is dead but his legacy of hate lives on.

  14. Rose Red

    Oh my GOODNESS here we go here comes the conversation with Dina that I’ve been hoping for

    (well, I hope so)

    if the next day is a scene change I will be sad

    1. Bryy

      You know it will be.

      1. alongcameaspider

        Tomorrow’s comic is Steve from questionable content eating cereal

        1. mrnoidea

          Some say he is still eating cereal to this day.

      2. thejeff

        Just a one-shot cut to Liz and Sarah in the car. Silent.

    2. Needfuldoer

      [Michael Jackson eating popcorn dot gif]

  15. Yotomoe

    I’ll make my own church and praise and worship will just be replaced by the 3-4 christian rock songs that don’t suck. And then I walk out to the procession and paraphrase a few things I read in the bible the previous night, usually ending with the phrase “Wow, that was crazy huh?” and then we all drink fanta grape and garlic bread. It’s probably religiously significant.

    1. Jamie

      Just recite the Song of Solomon every sermon.

    2. Delicious Taffy

      You’re gonna drink garlic bread?

      1. mrnoidea

        Not the worst drink out there. Gotta be better than Bacon Soda.

      2. misanthropope

        a true believer would snort it.

    3. Keulen

      I’ll make my own church, with blackjack and hookers! In fact, forget the church!

  16. Dr. T

    Becky went from hyper-passive-aggressive to realizing she just did a self-goal in record time.

  17. Ravian

    Hey!

    There’s also United Church of Christ. Which… my family shifted to almost seemlessly after being United Methodist ministers for multiple generations prior… okay fine maybe the gay-friendly Christian are all pretty similar.

    We did have music other than choir stuff sometimes though. Definitely not a lot of ‘Acoustic Contemporary’ or anything, but there was variety.

    1. Dinajoyce

      Yeah, there’s also a few branches of Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian. But having attended several of each of those…. yeah… same thing.

      1. Nicoleandmaggie

        I will say that with my experience with episcopal churches, the high churches (occasional latin, choirs) were a lot more lgbt+ friendly than were the low churches (guitar, I feel the joy joy joy joy down in my heart where?). I don’t know how universal that is.

        1. Garanhir

          Pretty much my own experience attending Episcopal churches; full “High Church” ritual conducted by a gay Bishop!

      2. DanD

        There are ELCA Lutheran churches with contemporary services, but I agree it’s not as common as many of the evangelical churches.

        Conservation of conservatism, maybe? The affirming churches spend all their conservatism on the services, so they don’t have any for hateful political views?

    2. Reltzik

      Also Unitarian-Universalist… which… sorta counts as church… if you squint… in which case it does seem like the others…

      1. Z

        That’s explicitly not christian though.

        1. Reltzik

          But many individual UUs are Christians.

    3. Deanatay

      WHAT’S WRONG WITH UNITED METHODIST ANYWAY??

      Sorry, had to let my religious upbringing vent. I’ve been a strict non-believer since college.

      1. thejeff

        What Becky said: doesn’t have hillsong-style acoustic contemporary music led by a dude with long hair. You know, the important stuff.

    4. Rose by Any Other Name

      I’ve encountered at least one Catholic church in the American north west that is LGBT+ friendly.

      Also, do Unitarians count as Christian? Cause they’re certainly LGBT+ friendly.

      1. Reltzik

        Here in the US, “Unitarian” usually means Unitarian-Universalist. UU is a big-tent religion, in terms of what its members believe. It includes a lot of Christians (about 20%, last I heard) but is not restricted to Christianity. It can also refer to the AUC, which is majority-Christian organization that split off from the UUA to get back to the tradition’s Unitarian roots. I don’t know where they stand on lgbt+ issues, but my guess is they’d be a bit more conservative and less socially- and politically active, but still affirming.

        But there are other Unitarian branches. In Romania and Hungary (roughly where Unitarianism took off), it’s often explicitly Christian.

  18. Bryy

    i don’t have a good feeling about this combination of people being in the same panel.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      Your imagination and mine seem to go to completely different places.

    2. Reltzik

      Dina has yet to hear about Joyce’s deconversion, apparently. … wow, this has potential to go wrong in all sorts of ways.

  19. Dave Van Domelen

    It’s not just the stationery that needs changing, they need to get someone to update the website that they paid someone to build in 1998 and haven’t touched since.

  20. RassilonTDavros

    Yaaay, it’s my least favorite word for an ex-Christian! Or at least I can’t think of any worse ones off the top of my head! Dangit Becky

    At the same time, though, I gotta feel for Becky here. It’s clear that the form of church service she grew up with was her comfort zone as it was Joyce’s, even if she’s not a creature of routine to quite the same extent. Somehow, in the same tools that her community used to betray her and people like her, she found a source of empowerment against those assholes’ betrayal.

    Now nobody in her comfort zone will accept her, and everybody who accepts her is outside of her comfort zone. And it doesn’t feel the same way as it used to. That’s gotta suck.

    1. Thag Simmons

      Do you prefer Heretic?

      1. Sporky

        “Heretic” kinda gets misused as “ex-Christian”, but it’s really more of a person who’s still Christian but has some belief(s) that go against religious orthodoxy

      2. eh, whatever

        That’s someone who’s still Christian and is just doing it wrong.

    2. Reltzik

      Yeah, nothing like a word that means “deserter” and “runaway” to express how much they respect your right to affiliate with the religion or not as you’re moved.

      Still, I gotta respect the ones who reclaim the label.

      … hmmm. Maybe Becky should organize a band of young progressive Christians to make their own Christian rock WITHOUT all the hatred homophobia. Sal… MIGHT be down for that… and Danny… I THINK they’re both nominally Christian?

      …. oh and Becky would have to, I dunno, learn to play the tambourine or something.

      1. Khyrin

        Nah, if Becky’s gonna be a percussionist, it’s gotta be drums. Add Sal on Vocal, and you can probably get away with letting Danny stay on Ukulele and still have a fairly solid band, even if you don’t have Sal pull double duty with an instrument.

        1. Reltzik

          Yeah, but playing the drums well requires lots of practice.

    3. Rainhat

      >Or at least I can’t think of any worse ones off the top of my head!

      I’ve gotten “backslider”. That worse or better?

    4. Rose by Any Other Name

      I dunno – ‘Apostate’ sounds kinda hot.

      Also, there are some fantastic Christian heresies. Honestly, if they embraced more of them, they’d be a lot more fun.

      1. thejeff

        My favorite heresy is based on the idea that God shows His Glory by forgiving sin, so we should all sin as much as possible in order for Him to be able to show the most forgiveness.

        1. Agemegos

          My favourite is Donatism, the heretical belief that ministers have to be good people who avoid sin.

    5. Sev

      Mine is “lapsed”, used to indicate that because your parents raised you a part of a cult, you can never stop being a part of it and bound by its rules whatever you say you believe and practice, and those still a part of the cult will treat you differently as a result.

      Sorry, the tone of this comment is probably a little bit testy for the grav, this is one that I have some recent personal second-hand history with.

  21. William Leonard Reese Jr.

    I’ve found that Catholic Churches, because hey raised catholic and can only apply my own experiences, . . . well they vary wildly depending on the parish and year.

    Back in 2003 it might not have gone over well if you came out as gay to the Father, might not have gone awfully but approval or acceptance would not have been the goto reply by the priest, but today at least in America I think that it’s a lot more muddled then it used to be.

    1. William Leonard Reese Jr.

      Oh! Should comment on the music.

      Never had a Mass be held in Latin, other then the actual songs by the church chorus and. . .well church practitioners, and insofar as I know the songs are still sung mostly in latin with some english here or there.

      Note: I have not been to church in near a decade now.

      1. Bicycle Bill

        Long-time Catholic myself here.  There’s very little Latin used in the liturgy any more.  Once in a while one of the older hymns may be sung in Latin and everybody pretends they know what they’re doing, but that’s about it, unless it’s a special service using the pre-1965 Latin Mass – sort of like how MLB and NFL teams will play a game or two in special ‘throw-back’ uniforms – and that’s usually requires special approval from the bishop of the diocese.  Either that or it’s one of these ultra-traditional, holier-than-thou parishes full of ultra-right-wing MAGA hat wearers like the one that the former Father Altman of Wisconsin was with.

        1. khn0

          There are still so-called “traidtional” parishes that do the latin thing.
          It amuses me endlessly since church latin pronunciation is also so traditional that it has not much to do with what it was when written so…

    2. Romanticide

      Popular religiosity conflicting with the church authority religiosity on catholicism is as old as the history of the religion XD it seems that in the US lately you have it conflicting a lot, as you have US bishops conflicting with the current pope and wishing they could act like ultra rightwing evangelicals and other hand you basically have nuns getting in conflict with this local authorities as they certainly would’t like to take that direction.

    3. Skater Girl

      When my late wife and I had our ceremony over 15 years ago, her priest officiated the ceremony. It wasn’t official, neither legally nor religiously, but still. There’s quite a bit of variance in acceptance between parishes

    4. Nicoleandmaggie

      The Catholic Church in Santa Monica had gay night every week (on like a Thursday or something not usual). The Lutheran church lady who told me this when I was complaining about their priest asking the congregation to pray against gay marriage said that night was the best music. (We complained to the preacher, wrote a nasty letter to the synod, and said no more performances for our preschooler, required or not). They were also guitar heavy. I don’t know if the synod that came out as 100% gay friendly had different music or not, but I do know that the evil synod had almost nobody in the congregation other than preschool parents. Homophobia is not a good look in Santa Monica.

      1. Rose by Any Other Name

        As I mentioned above, I know of LBGT friendly Catholic church on the Eastern side of the US – one of my exes took me to church there once. She was cool – she was really into church scholarship, and we had some fantastic conversations about church doctrine (recalling that I’m a huge fan of Christian mythology).

  22. Theozilla

    What about Unitarian Churches?
    Or are those too secular for what Becky wants?

  23. drs

    Gayfriendly churches include Episcopal (at least in the US and Canada, offer void in Africa), I think United Church of Christ, and yes UUs, though UUs often don’t count themselves as Christian. The ones in Bloomington might; I think there’s an inverse relation with how easy it is to be non-Christian in general. (I was told that the Midwest was a “hotbed of humanism” for UUs; the San Francisco UUs seemed to lean more godly. Bloomington is Midwest, but the town is more like San Francisco and other liberal cities.)

    1. drs

      They’re probably not better for Becky’s music, though.

    2. fridge_logic

      Presbyterians can be fairly progressive in this regard. The PC(USA) at the national level supports ordination of gay ministers, same sex marriage, and advocates for equal rights of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

      Although that did piss off a bunch of local churches who decided to form a conservative faction and basically split from the national church. Surprisingly it was more the Christian rock side of my church that wanted to stay PC(USA) – And I say that coming from a family that is staunchly believes God likes gays and organ music.

  24. Tenzhi

    Looks like Dina is halfway to crossing her tees.

    1. The Wellerman

      I don’t get it.

      1. Tenzhi

        Because she’s already dotted her eyes?

        1. milu

          *applause*

  25. Rikunda

    Which religion is she aiming for again? To still have such strong beliefs in religion while being that huge of a flaming queen has got to be hard mode.

    1. StClair

      at this rate, she’s gonna be the only member of the Church of God Who Likes Everything I Do soon enough.

      1. StClair

        (I mean, there are actually a lot of those, but they tend to have very little in common besides the name.)

      2. Thag Simmons

        You could make a religion out of that

        1. Agemegos

          Lots of people do.

      3. Rainhat

        It is super impressive that when God speaks to people, its usually stuff they’d agree to do anyway.

        1. 80-watt Hamster

          Conversely, I’ve heard plenty of stories from folks who found themselves with a calling they REALLY didn’t want to go through with. But yeah; that’s much less common.

        2. Jeff K!

          There’s actually a Section in the LDS Doctrine and Covenants that is basically Joseph Smith saying “No, really, Emma! I don’t WANT to get married to other women, but God sent an angel with a flaming sword to cut my head off if I don’t! I guess I just have to have a whole lot of other wives, doggone it!”

      4. Agemegos

        I have known several people who could not shake the belief that God hated things they couldn’t stop doing. As well as the obvious gays and lesbians who believed that God hates all sex and desire except for married hetero couples doing vaginal, I once knew a bipolar Catholic (fairly liberal priest-resenting Catholic) who was tortured during her depressive phase by the conviction that the intrusive thoughts she had in manic phase were thought thoughtcrime per Matt. 5:28 (mutatis mutandis for the difference of gender).

    2. Julez

      You’d be surprised. I know at least one queer minister in the episcopal church.

      1. Z

        There’s a trans woman who transitioned while in ministry and is still in it as well. Don’t ask me which brand of christian I can’t tell them apart

        I used to live in Ireland and I still couldn’t tell you the first difference between Catholic and protestant. You use the same bible. Worship the same god. Why the division?

        1. Delicious Taffy

          The division exists because humans can’t agree on jack shit and are inherently horrible to each other.

        2. Z

          “We beat up everyone so they’d accept our god was the right god. Now everyone is worshipping our god and it’s boring so we’re going to get into fights over the right way to worship our god”

          *Shakes head*

        3. Khyrin

          Real Talk: The BIG reason for the division, among the 94 other theses, was the concept of Indulgences, which is basically “I give Church Money, and My Sins (up to this point) No Longer Count.”

          I’m sure you can see the loophole, there.

          I will admit that many of the other differences are picayune, e.g. Saints and intersession.

        4. thejeff

          Of course, the Catholics have given up on indulgences anyways (or at least on the blatant abuse Luther complained about, I don’t know the details of the doctrine), but that’s not going to bring them back together.

          And Protestants have fractured into dozens of different variants of their own.

          Which still leaves out the Orthodox Church and earlier smaller schisms.

    3. Z

      Uhhh what are you talking about? Flaming queens tend to be really religious. We even have our own Jesus now – Jonathan Van Ness.

  26. King Daniel

    Where’s the state of Apo, anyway? I can’t find it on a map!

    1. milu

      It’s right next to the state of Ball!

      1. khn0

        Well I looked near Ball on the map and all I found was the state Pro.

    2. Rainhat

      I thought I found Apostate in Apophenia, but it turns out I was making something out of nothing.

    3. Clif

      Isn’t it the capitol of Plexy?

  27. Chasey

    I am also completely lost, Dina.

  28. Judas Peckerwood

    I’m concerned by Dina’s eyes in that last panel.

  29. Dave

    It’s always weird when I remember that Christian Sabbath services have all sorts of music going on, since Shabbat services have no instruments of any kind

    I mean, some reformed synagogues do, but my family belonged to a conservative synagogue, so that didn’t apply

    Prayer and music just don’t mesh together in my mind. Singing, sure, but once instruments are involved I get all mentally confused

    1. Romanticide

      Christian denominations don’t require as strict rest and from I can observe in the history of the religion, sunday basically the came “you got personal stuff done” besides going to church… to the point church disaproval was at times the only thing between a robber baron exploiting people 6 times a week to seven :S

    2. FGarber

      I had to attend my wife’s hometown Catholic Church once or twice and was surprised at the LACK of music. I expected organ and a choir every couple of minutes, but it was one song at the beginning and then one at the end. I grew up in a Midwest Reform Jewish congregation, and we were Deep into the the Folksinging Gospel of Debbie Friedman.

  30. Tim C.

    We’d be happy to have Becky down at the ELCA too these days. But steer clear of the Mousurri Synod, and let’s not even discuss the Wisconsin Synod

    1. King Daniel

      What about the Cadaver Synod?

  31. DarkoNeko

    it’s ok Dina, i kinda gave up too

  32. Julez

    The Episcopalians and the Unitarian Universalists would be chill also from what I remember, but I don’t know about where they are in Indiana.

    1. Z

      UU is not christian. It’s open to everyone. If we’re going there then let’s discuss whether Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, or various pagan paths would be better.

      1. drs

        UU did derive from relatively modern Christianity, unlike any of the others you name.

    2. Biscuit

      Episcopalians aren’t that unusual in IN, especially in cities. I’m pretty sure Bloomington has a few.

      1. KM

        Becky and Joyce went to one once, when they accompanied Jacob!

        1. thejeff

          Too Catholic for their tastes.

          Maybe if they found a Low Church Episcopalian sect.

  33. anonymsly

    Hand to vague nondenominational entity, every word out of Becky’s mouth just makes me dislike her more. Would it kill her to, you know, not try to twist a knife or inflict pain and guilt on her supposed best friend for like five seconds? One greeting of ‘oh hey Joyce, how’s you’ instead of what amounts to ‘how’s the hellbound jerkface, ready to crawl back yet?’

    I mean, good on Joyce for rising to the obvious. I’d’ve been all ‘welp, that’s my limit for today, bye’ while walking away as soon as the cheerful smile of panel one morphed into the smug dickery of panel 2.

    1. Sunny

      Huh. To me Becky’s comment reads like banter between friends. Those two in particular still have some things to work out, but they’re secure enough in their friendship that they can throw those barbs and know it’s ok.

      Not saying you’re wrong in how you’re reading it, just wanted to point out that there are other ways as well.

      1. Spencer

        Becky’s last strip made it clear she deliberately played Rich Mullins to “yank at the ol’ God strings” in Joyce, ie: she’s trying to convert her back.

        Moreover, their friendship isn’t “throwing barbs” because it’s Becky, exclusively, who throws them for *long complicated post about Becky’s dependency on Joyce and need for safety due to suffering constant chaos and authoritarian abuse her whole life*

        You’re completely correct that this is the status quo for these two, the problem is that we’ve found out that their status quo was toxic and codependent.

      2. Anon A Mouse

        You’re correct that it’s just “Becky being Becky” and Joyce is obviously ok with it, but it’s much the same as it is with Dorothy. Just because they are ok with it, and this is how their relationship is at the moment, doesn’t make anything Becky is saying OK. Especially given our position of knowledge in how Becky really feels about it, Becky is an incredibly toxic person to both Joyce and Dorothy.

        1. anonymsly

          Joyce is not obviously okay with it, she resignedly tolerating something she doesn’t like because there’s no way Becky will ever stop tormenting her in this way. Every time she snaps and shows anger or hurt to Becky she gets punished for it, and showing anger or hurt in this specific case is what Becky wants. An angry or hurt Joyce is a Joyce that might crawl back to church to make it stop!

          Look at Joyce’s face: shut down, no hint of smile, eyes half-closed like she’s tired. Look at the punctuation in her word balloons: no emphasized words, no exclamation marks, no return of serve, just flat response when a response is expected.

          This is not Joyce participating in a time-honored ritual between friends. This is Joyce putting up with something she actively dislikes. In fact, I’ll go one bigger. This is Joyce using the tactic (that doesn’t work) that people often get told to use when dealing with bullies: if you don’t react, the bully will get bored and leave you alone. (Which is, frankly, the same tactic Dorothy employs when dealing with Becky, but less developed. Dorothy is able to act friendly and pretend Becky is too, so Becky is constantly just irritating/hurting herself. Dorothy’s method has some small chance of working in future, if she can keep it up long enough for Becky to actually realize Dorothy is not untouchable but reflective.)

        2. Rabid Rabbit

          What’s fascinating about Joyce’s face in the last panel is that it can be read in many ways, just as the whole interaction can. Yes, it could be resignation. It could also be a sarcastic new-atheist sneer. Unless she’s about to weep for what she’s lost, of course. Because man, those eyeballs look like tears. (Note: this is not a serious suggestion.)

          On the surface, the whole thing does read like banter between friends who’ve got this one thing they don’t agree on, and can joke about the disagreement without either giving up their position. I’m sort of reminded of myself and a vegetarian friend. We get along fine, but they do refer to my meals with lines like “So, how are your dead animal parts?” I find this hilarious and use the same term. In this case, what’s still up in the air is whether it’s mutual bantering yet. Joyce may not quite be ready for that stage, and Becky may have reached for it a bit too soon as well because that’s what she does.

        3. thejeff

          There’s little reason to think it’s just bantering on Becky’s side here and I’m normally a Becky supporter.

          Their last interaction was her playing the Rich Mullins to remind her of what she liked about Christianity. That’s what she’s trying to do here as well – though it sort of falls apart because she wasn’t at that kind of service. And she was pretty open about that talking to Lucy afterwards.

          Much of what Becky does is friendly banter, but this is still tied up in “lure Joyce back to the faith.”

        4. anonymsly

          Oh, there’s no luring. This is full on ‘I am going to shove yu and poke you with needles until you go back just to make it stop.’ Luring would involve a lot more, I don’t know, sweetness.

        5. Amós Batista

          Joyce’s face is full of disgust and scorn. I just loved it!

    2. Keulen

      Sadly, Becky’s been acting like a jerk towards other people for a long while now. Her behavior towards her friend Joyce is particularly bad, but I’ve been tired of Becky being a jerk to people since long before she learned Joyce is an atheist.

    3. misanthropope

      i feel as you seem to, about becky’s behavior in general. im not getting any of it this strip, though. to me this comes off as becky and joyce feeling out the new boundaries of their relationship. i havent disliked becky this _little_ in some time.

      1. Anon A Mouse

        The “Lil baby apostate” part is pretty damning, so to speak.

  34. Archieve

    Has anybody mentioned to Dina yet that Joyce now identifies as atheist? Also Becky, I see what your trying to do but assuming you have the answer to somebody else’s lose of faith usually doesnt end well.

    1. Thag Simmons

      Give it a second

    2. anonymsly

      I think that’s what’s happening now, yeah. I don’t think Dina’s not-understanding us regarding the subject matter, but the way Joyce and Becky are reacting to each other.

      Like, Dina’s used to a certain ‘Becky and Joyce’ dynamic, she’s figured out How This Goes via observation, and How This Goes includes a specific level of her not understanding what’s going on. That level of not-understanding is fine, and expected, and need not be parsed. But this is emphatically not How This Goes, her level of not-understanding has far exceeded set tolerances, so she says so.

      1. thejeff

        But she also doesn’t understand the subject matter, so she’s likely not sure how far off this is from normal.

        1. Florence

          Poor Dina, as an autistic myself I feel her confusion

    3. Keulen

      I’m hoping somebody either tells Dina or she figures it out from the interactions between Joyce and Becky soon. Though telling her would probably be easier.

  35. Needfuldoer

    Same, Dina. Same.

    I hope these three don’t get burned too bad when Dina inevitably agrees with Joyce about atheism, and Becky takes it as well as we’re all expecting…

  36. Juanoku

    I gave up trying to understand this one three panels in, don’t worry dina

  37. Sarpiedon

    Considering the crap the United Methodist church pulled at their general conference back in 2019, I’m not so sure I’d call them a ”GayFriendly” church.
    Local churches notwithstanding.

  38. Rectilinear Propagation

    Oh man, I’m with Dina.

    This does remind me of a story of my grandfather. What feels like ages ago, my grandparents moved to be near us, in the South. His go to for random people asking about his religion was to just say he was non-denominational. What he meant by that was “religious but not a specific religion” but he didn’t know that non-denominational churches are a thing.

    So when his new doctor asks him what church he goes to and he says he’s non-denominational, the doctor goes: “Oh, really? Do they teach the full gospel?”

    And my grandfather says, “Oh…it’s pretty full.”

    (I don’t know/remember if him saying he was non-denominational was a thing that worked in New York to change the subject or if it was a new strategy he came up with after moving.)

    1. Ray Radlein

      Reminded of L. Sprague DeCamp’s classic time travel novel Lest Darkness Fall, where our hero, catapulted back in time to a Gothic-era Rome with thousands of angrily-competing Christian splinter sects, makes up a denomination that he belongs to, and whatever set of beliefs his interlocutor professes, he agrees “yeah, that’s pretty much what we believe, too”

      1. StClair

        maybe that’s the church Becky belongs to. (see above)

    2. thejeff

      What does “do they teach the full gospel” even mean?
      Is there any church that would answer no?

      Or is that some key word you’re expected to know even if you’re not part of a sect that uses it?

      1. Rainhat

        The second one. It’s a shibboleth of sorts.

        1. thejeff

          It’s just weird, because I can’t imagine any Christian not in on the shibboleth agreeing that they didn’t teach the full gospel.
          Like, what would they say? “No, we ignore most of John and the first half of Luke.”

        2. JBento

          Just like with any other piece of programming, once you’ve seen it enough times you can just fast forward through the boring parts and pretend they aren’t there.

        3. Schpoonman

          “Anything in red? We toss it right out.”

        4. Arian

          I have often suspected that.

  39. Rabbit

    agh, no

    1. Rabbit

      Mm??

      1. Hazel

        I assume, like me, they are trying to get a cool avatar.

        1. Hazel

          And they, like me, are failing.

        2. Delicious Taffy

          Don’t feel too bad, some of us get the best one on our first try, and some of us are perpetually stuck in roulette hell.

        3. Dara

          Is this done by changing the linked URL or something?

        4. Dara

          Like if I change my URL a little does it change the grav?

        5. Needfuldoer

          Change the capitalization of your email address. Different combinations of capital letters will spit out different characters.

          Don’t worry, the whitelist system is not case-sensitive, so you won’t get stuck back in approval limbo.

  40. Rabbit

    Did the gravs shift again?

    1. Rabbit

      THERE WE GO. Jeesh

    2. Thag Simmons

      woulda been a while ago, back when Ethan was reintroduced

    3. Delicious Taffy

      Oh, have they? It’s sometimes tough to notice.

  41. Johan

    Open hearts open minds

    Or whatever.

    Even with an incredibly liberal God I still couldn’t. 🙁

    And I was heavily involved in the church (alone my parents were the “you can’t be an atheist because reasons but we aren’t going to church with you) I was Sunday school teachers pet, invited friends to youth groups, led the Christmas parades, was an acolyte, went to the summer camps every single year. Hell, I even convinced my siblings to get baptized with me. Still… It just didn’t make sense to me. I tried so very hard to be Christian but at least United Methodist didn’t preach hate.

  42. Arianod

    It’s OK Dina, you’ll get there eventually. I believe in you.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      She might be happier not understanding whatever the hell they’re talking about. It’s liable to just baffle and irritate her.

      1. Arianod

        Maybe I should clarity that “there” is inside Becky’s pants

  43. Agemegos

    Stationery. “Stationary” is an adjective.

    1. Needfuldoer

      Becky accidentally fell into a congregation full of homophones.

      1. milu

        They’re very open-minded. About spelling.

    2. Arianod

      That’s why Dina didn’t understand what they were talking about.

      1. yttro

        i am, unfortunately, actually confused by this; is becky saying stationery? it’s inconsequential enough but i’m illiterate to doubt myself to the degree of believing there’s a meaning i would be missing in “stationary”.

  44. Florence

    Well dang, was hoping for a positive atheist experience for Joyce before the inevitable conflict with Becky would prevent it. Hopefully there’s at least an honest reveal that Joyce is an atheist before someone describes it in a less true way combative way. I want at least one person seeing the atheism before the idea of Joyce dang it!

    1. Florence

      Or slow burn angst. Pick your phrase for the current state of the dynamic here folks!

    2. Spencer

      I kinda wonder if it’s intentional that Joyce’s thoughts get derailed by Becky’s presence. Not necessarily this strip but more so how it’s gone down previously.

      Like Joyce is with Liz then it becomes about Becky, then Joyce is with Dorothy and eventually it becomes about Becky, then Joyce goes over to Galasso’s to “fix it, today” and Joyce has to play emotional support for Becky again, and then come Kraft Dinner time Becky tries to reassert their old status quo and we just found out it was a deliberate attempt to reconvert her.

      Dorothy’s already not doing a good job, but I do think there’s been an undercurrent of Becky running interference through this.

      1. Florence

        Yea, I think in this strip we’re seeing the disconnect that Becky has with Joyce in comparison to other people starting to strain even in her head. It could just be a joke and a joke alone but the switch from smug to getting lost in minutia might be because of Dina’s presence, which feels different from previous Becky Joyce interactions.

        And as your comment describes, this is awfully similar to conversion type practices. Not that Becky is doing all of the bad stuff but I think it’s the habit and assumption her upbringing instilled in her.

        Much like Joyce previously, Becky is going through a structure that she doesn’t think she needs to think critically about and no one in the cast has called her out on or talked her through because they assume “gay Christian gets it already”. Which fair, it’s hard to begin to approach a person who’s been through something so rough.

        But well, it means now Becky is actively doing some elements of shitty conversion crap, and not considering how this all functions cause Becky (at least with Joyce) views herself as acting as a good Christian!(which is a whole contradiction when considering how Becky usually views herself)

        It’ll be interesting to see how she functions with Dina in the room who she seems to be very much not like that at all with Dina. I’m no great predictor but perhaps they’ll be a constant switching to try to make the 2 ways she is work. Maybe she’ll even recognise what she’s doing.

        I genuinely find Becky so interesting when thinking of all this, a perfect example of how complicated christian cultural norms function when it’s not the expected kind of source. Like I’m not a fan of the actions, but I keep finding things to analyse with her psychology

        1. anonymsly

          Becky’s aware she’s trying to reconvert Joyce, it’s not something she’s doing unconsciously. She’s not trying to be nice or understanding or comforting, she’s consciously trying to wound and anger. Joyce will come back to Jesus because that’s what Becky wants, and Joyce’s thoughts and feelings Do Not Matter.

          Joyce is fighting her, so Becky’s engaged all systems to jab and slap in ways that, if Joyce reacts badly, it’s Joyce behaving badly because ‘it’s just goofy Becky being goofy like always’.

        2. Rainhat

          This is pretty much it. Becky’s main Thing is shouting what she is, over and over “and if you don’t like it…” (etc). It’s just that, in this case, the person opposing “what she is” is Joyce and “What she is” (in this case) is Christian. So, she’s gonna keep pushing that button.

        3. Florence

          I’m not saying Becky isn’t aware she’s trying to convert, I’m saying she doesn’t understand the layers of how conversion functions. All of what she’s doing is a normal part of a culture that she doesn’t understand she was affected by unlike Joyce who’s spent the entire comic deconstructing that relationship. So here she’s just following that structure.

          To be clear, I don’t think a lack of knowledge of the full severity of your actions makes those actions okay, just that it describes why Becky is acting the way she is. Sorry for the confusion.

        4. Spencer

          Becky’s gonna crack the same way Joyce has been cracking the whole series and we’re still going to be as surprised when it happens.

          Like, what do you mean Becky’s been messed by growing up in a home with an authoritarian figure who controlled her life that she could only rebel against very subtly and in ways that didn’t undermine his sense of control, where her only source of comfort and stability even more so after her mom’s suicide, was her best friend that it turns out she was in love with her whole life?

          Becky is a funny lesbian who makes funny jokes! Psh she’s fine obviously there’s nothing going on under that hood.

        5. Florence

          It’s wild how much of a perfect storm her inner conflict is cause she’s got no one in her life to push her to introspection

        6. Spencer

          I actually think that last part is deeply relevant to Becky’s character.

          She’s got Joyce and Dorothy who unconditionally love her, and so Becky can act as she pleases because she know she’s safe. Dina is incredibly constructive and precise with Becky but she’s never actually seen her wrong before, and I think that’s because Dina doesn’t approach Becky in the same kind of unconditional love as Joyce and Dorothy.

          (y’know, maybe Robin telling her to make mistakes may prove relevant)

          Here’s kinda how I see it: Joyce can be annoyed as much as Becky wants because Joyce is the ultimate safety; even if her Joyce gone, Becky still feels the need to try and bring her back to God instead of accepting that Joyce loves her now. Dorothy was annoyed a whole bunch and so Becky sees Dorothy as someone who is safe because if she’s willing to put up with her and then tell Becky that she’s in her corner then that means Dorothy likes her and now Becky has to prove she’s a cool funny badass so Dorothy will be someone Becky can be vulnerable towards. Dina is someone Becky cannot annoy in the same way, because Becky thinks of Dina’s love for her as conditional in that it’s okay for Dina to help when Becky is being wronged, but not okay for Becky to do wrong. If Becky treated Dina like she does Dorothy for whatever reason, I think Becky would process that as an immediate grounds for Dina breaking up with her (which probably contributes to her sexual guilt complex, where she rationalized Dina’s low sex drive as correct and it was herself at fault).

          It’s hard to really convey this the right way, but the people Becky is safest with are the people she can be her worst towards, because they won’t turn on her the way defying her dad in any capacity led to punishment. She’s completely without a filter with Joyce and Dorothy, and they’re enabling her in the same way because they view her as a sad victim that needs to be protected when the reality is that Becky is, actually, completely capable of stepping up for people she loves and even capable of accepting doing wrong by Joyce and not crumbling to pieces over it (how she kissed Joyce, found out about Ryan, and panicked because she thought she had engaged in the same behaviour towards Joyce and triggered something). Dorothy continues to enable Becky because she thinks Joyce’s feelings are wrong, but that’s because Dorothy can only process things like a centrist.

        7. anonymsly

          The thing is that if Becky is going to improve (read: stop being intentionally cruel and hurtful to the people to the people she purports to love while firmly believing it’s okay) SOMETHING has to snap and bounce back at her, and right now it looks like that thing is ultimately going to be Joyce.

          And it should be, frankly. A lifetime of sisterhood deserves better than what Becky has been delivering. (Especially when Walky, someone Joyce has known for less than a year and doesn’t particularly like, and Joe, someone Joyce has known less than a year and once punched in the face, are being better friends by far.)

        8. Spencer

          Okay so here’s the thing; Becky is being “intentionally cruel and hurtful” in that the status quo she’s had so far involves Joyce and Dorothy as unending founts of tolerance for her because they don’t recognize her actions as wrong, and so this feeds into Becky’s complex about unconditional love where she can have absolutely zero filter around them because they won’t turn on her. She can say anything to them and they’ll still laugh because they know she’s “just kidding” and she knows that they know that, and so it continues despite context being reshaped where none of this is actually good.

          Joe and Walky are better at this than Dorothy, Becky and Sarah because the two of them don’t rely on a specific status quo where Joyce remains as-is for their benefit. Walky doesn’t really care either way, probably, while Joe is someone who became a better person because Joyce trusted him enough to change in the first place.

          Joyce has been mostly interacting with those three and so they keep blaming her because it’s easier than recognizing their own dependence on Joyce as someone who bullrushes in as a dad punching, emotional constipation resolving teddy bear it’s fun to poke and laugh at, because it’s her fault for getting mad in the first place.

        9. anonymsly

          And exactly none of that is okay, and Becky at least needs to learn that it’s not okay. It’s not okay to be unrelentingly shitty to people you allegedly love. It’s wild to me that ‘feeling safe’ means ‘open license to bully without ever facing consequence’. At a certain point, I’d like to think that anyone would or at least should say ‘I deserve better than this.’

      2. Florence

        I went off there but yes, it’s for sure a trend we’ve seen in comparison to Dorothy

    3. Keulen

      I was also hoping Dina would learn of Joyce’s newfound atheism before Becky showed up. It would’ve been nice to see them talking about it without Becky being a jerk to Joyce for no longer believing in her religion.

      1. Florence

        Yea, there’s a potential dynamic there that would have been so nice, just building up Joyce’s understanding of self away from expectation. Alas it is back to the angst

  45. Sombrero

    And now, the DoA version of the People’s Front of Judea scene. With music!

  46. eh, whatever

    Dina randomly blurting out names is not very autistic of her.

    1. Spencer

      Excuse me?

    2. Delicious Taffy

      She’s welcoming her girlfriend, not blurting out names.

      1. Azhrei Vep

        Becky literally asked a question, the answer to which was her name. Dina played along appropriately. Now, I’m not on the spectrum myself, but I’m fairly confident that even if one was, they could answer that question just fine.

        Which is a long way of saying “Yeah, what Taffy said.”

        1. Delicious Taffy

          Can confirm, people on the spectrum are capable of answering simple identity-based semi-rhetorical questions involving people we know. You may be onto something there.

        2. Inbar Fink

          Yeah, and as someone who IS on the Spectrum, I am kinda uncomfortable with the whole “oh, this person Did a Social Cue Right once? That’s not very autistic of them!” thing. I don’t like it when people forget that different autistic people can have very different – and sometimes totally opposite – communication styles. Or the implication that an Autistic person managing to approximate Neurotypical communication like, once, is somehow making them lose their ‘Autism Points’.

        3. Delicious Taffy

          For one thing, it just gets old. I’ve met plenty of other folks with The Aunts, since American schools like tossing us into “Special Education” classes at the first sign of difference, and they’ve all been, like, humans ?? And not confused puppies that needed applause for learning where their tail is every ten seconds?

    3. APersonAmI

      … Why is that something you would want to gatekeep? What is gained?

    4. Keulen

      You do realize that autism is a spectrum, right? We don’t all act exactly the same.

    5. The Wellerman

      ?????

      As a neurodivergent, this is exactly why I hate sweeping labels like “autism”. They lead to people making really hurtful assumptions about us and make it really hard for people to tell the difference between our disabilities and our PERSONALITIES.

      But what do I expect, really? These labels like “autism” were made by neurotypical “professionals” coming out of a really, REALLY bad place, and are controlled by neurotypicals and are inevitably a VERY skewed lense to attempt to understand us from, and an ESPECIALLY skewed lense to try to develop a CHARACTER from.

      1. a/snow/mous/e

        yeah, at least it’s something i can point to and say “there’s a reason i do dumb things sometimes”, but it’s really not a sensible grouping at all.

        1. a/snow/mous/e

          and original comment is… seriously screwed up. jeez, think before you speak.

  47. GUIGUI

    how far is the Curch of Zoe from Indiana?

  48. foducool

    dang, dina went full emoji :v|

  49. Council

    Grav roulette

    1. Council

      Ok this is good

      1. Rainhat

        I still have the same thing. What do you do to roulette?

        1. Clif

          Spin the capitalization wheel on your email.

  50. Daibhid C

    Okay, this is doubtless a cultural thing, probably further affected by the fact I haven’t been inside a church except to admire the architecture since 1989, but this feels really weird to me. Like, I very much associate long-haired guitarists with what Joyce previously called “a hippie church”. Long hair and guitar quite literally says “hippie” to me. The fundies round our way don’t approve of singing in church at all; you’re not going there to have fun.

    1. Sam

      Their church already condemned dancing outside of very specific circumstances. They had to use SOMETHING to lure the kids into believing that God was good actually and not just terrifying.

      It has been mentioned before though that Becky and Joyce’s church had a guitarist. That specifically one of the things they liked about it was that. And like, if you are a cult-like sect, it is absolutely a lot easier to get kids to ‘behave’ and accept your nonsense if your church seems ‘fun’ so God seems ‘fun’ and ‘positive’ by association.

      1. King Daniel

        Joyce clarified that that was a different church, not her now-former church.

        1. King Daniel

          The one that condemned dancing, that is.

    2. tim gueguen

      Joyce and Becky’s church might not actually be that cool with long hair on men, but like a large number of modern conservative Protestant churches have adopted religious music that incorporates elements of contemporary music. If you saw a photo of the “worship team” common in those kind of churches you might think you were looking at a rock band.

  51. Joe

    You ARE missing out, Joyce. United Methodists always have food between services.
    It was the main thing I liked about church when I still went.

    1. Deanatay

      Same, way to a person’s heart and all that

  52. Jabberwocky

    In fairness, there’s also the Metropolitan Community Church

  53. JessWitt

    I’m with Dina on this one, and it’s because I grew up Catholic. Choirs only.

  54. Rainhat

    I’d hope the “I don’t understand a word of this’ contingent would remember that their stuff (whatever “their stuff” may be) can be equally impenetrable, sometimes, but… it’s a forlorn hope.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      That’s a weird thing to say. You can understand that your interests are impenetrable and still verbalize bafflement at other impenetrable things without not being contradictory.

      1. Delicious Taffy

        *without being contradictory. The double negative snuck in due to sleep deprivation.

      2. Rainhat

        I thought maybe that it would carry over into some small empathy. But apparently “That’s weird.”

        1. Delicious Taffy

          I mean, nobody here isn’t being empathetic, is the thing. The most I can see is “I don’t get it”.

    2. Spencer

      I have stuff but it’s Sonic the Hedgehog lore.

    3. thejeff

      I think that a lot people who have more niche interests are fully aware of that. One of the reasons I don’t generally talk about many of my interests much in outside circles is that I know full well that most people wouldn’t get it and even if they were interested, the part they’d be able to grasp without a lot of background information (and maybe some personal experience) isn’t really what would interest me.

      People raised in insular religious groups often don’t get that, because their experience is shaped to prevent them from getting that. Seeing how others see their experience is often part of breaking out of the indoctrination.

      Not that that really applies to Becky or Joyce here, since they’re talking to each other in shared language, though it goes over Dina’s head of course.

      All that aside, I’m not really sure how “I don’t understand any of that” is not having empathy.

  55. someone

    Dina, you should look at it this way: churches are kind of like dinosaurs. They’re big beasts that are quickly going extinct due to a dramatic change in their environment. Here your friends are talking about specific details of the Baptistosaurus vs. the Methodistosaurus.

    1. thejeff

      “Quickly going extinct” is a bit of an overstatement, I’m afraid. There’s definitely been a long decline and a somewhat faster one in the last few years, but they’re a long way from gone.

    2. Keulen

      Sadly, they’re not going extinct nearly fast enough for my liking. Assuming they actually are going extinct.

  56. Throwatron

    Everyone who was kid’s glovesing Becky and excoriating Joyce: can we please get the same in return for Becky, now? Joyce stopped doing the bad thing. And we’ve now had it revealed that Becky is doing the exact same thing, but worse, and she’s involved other people in her literal manipulative scheme. We are officially in “Becky is being a Bongo” territory.

    1. Axel_Grease

      Becky’s got redeeming qualities but she’s toxic as hell sometimes.

    2. thejeff

      I don’t know. Can the people who were all about understanding how Joyce’s actions were rooted in her trauma and thus couldn’t even be criticized understand that Becky’s are the same?

      And yes, Becky is being a jerk here.

      1. Spencer

        I mean, they aren’t, not really. Becky keeps taking ownership of Joyce’s traumas because Joyce has to remain her Joyce forever, that’s not really something that can be both-sided.

        Joyce said Becky was “smart enough to figure it out” in the immediate aftermath of the first fight they’ve ever had on the worst possible topic, and then Joyce still had to play emotional support for her at Galasso’s, where “come on to my side” was something said in the immediate following to Becky tearfully stating that Joyce had left her behind.

        It’s only an equal conflict if the only part of it that matters is where these two traumatized children think the other is stinky for being wrong about the origin of life, a fight that only happened as a result of the far more pressing matter of Becky being a possessive nutbar, and that possessiveness is something wrought thanks to a lifetime of chaos where Joyce has been placed and placed herself as Becky’s guardian.

        Like, yeah, Becky’s wrong, Becky and Dorothy are the ones causing the problem, and also Becky’s a good person who’s not really had much opportunity to vocalize what’s wrong with her because she thinks people only like her if she’s funny and then Joyce provides her an outlet to be as annoying as possible with zero fear that she’ll ever turn on her, and Dorothy and Sarah aren’t helping because they view it as a problem caused by Joyce being loud, angry and problematic.

        Like it’s not as simple and binary as “Joyce lashing out due to trauma,” it’s lashing out at specific institutions and having a fight with specific people who are repeatedly attempting to control Joyce’s continued development, a development that only went awry when they felt entitled enough to her time that they followed her to Joe’s.

        1. Axel_Grease

          People keep saying Amber should get therapy but I actually think it would be more helpful for Becky. She’s got some deep insecurities to unlearn.

        2. Spencer

          Well, they all should.

          Unfortunately it’s not much of a character drama if the characters do the right thing!

      2. Sombrero

        Joyce understands from where Becky’s actions come from. Sure this is more important for Becky than the understanding of a bunch of people beyond the 4th wall. Anyway, Becky’s real problem now is not being or not a jerk (she usually is, and nobody takes her seriously), her problem is that Joyce will not wait for her forever. If she doesn’t find a way to connect with her besides churchy things, she will lost her.

  57. Amós Batista

    I came from the church, but I didn’t understand about Becky’s speech.

    1. tim gueguen

      Hillsong Church is an Australian charismatic megachurch that’s become influential internationally. That’s especially the case for the contemporary Christian music the church has produced.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong_Church

      1. Amós Batista

        Yes, but I didn’t understand what she is talking about: is Becky telling Joyce there’s no difference between Hillsong style and non-bigot churches?

        1. thejeff

          Not so much that there’s no difference, but that the churches that tend to use the Hillsong style tend to be fundamentalist bigoted ones. It’s not like a doctrinal matter, where the two things are both mandated, it’s just that it tends to be bigoted churches that took up that style of worship.

        2. Amós Batista

          Yeah, I got it.
          That’s sad, huh? A modern church should be more open to diverrsity and Hillsong is against it.

  58. Caninse

    As someone who grew up in a United Methodist church, this is mostly true. We have a choir and are gay-friendly, though there’s a large enough section of the church’s elders that aren’t gay friendly that gay marriage wasn’t approved. My dad is a church elder and was quite disappointed that just over half struck it down (he was on the side for approving it), but he said that, if things keep going the direction he thinks they will, by the next conference it will be approved. That said, in terms of UMC congregations, I’d say there’s already a notable majority that want it approved. It’s just old white conservative pastors being stubborn, but the shift of approval has been strong.

  59. Florence

    Hey, if my tone comes across badly to anyone I’m sorry. I’m autistic and struggle with words sometimes, but just know I try to be positive and conversational, even if I disagree

    1. Florence

      This does not mean you can’t say “not cool” if I’m being a jerk I just feel like my tone is getting confused by some people here sometimes

    2. Spencer

      I don’t think you come across this way in the slightest, and I’m sure no one else feels that you are.

      1. Florence

        That’s good, I just get worried sometimes on socials. Thank you ?

  60. Eldritchy

    I’m sure glad that I only have Catholics (and an occasional Jehovah Witness) to deal with.

    1. Sombrero

      Oh, but Catholics also come in different flavors! They even come with two different Popes (the acting one and the emeritus)!!

      1. Eldritchy

        Still more coherent than the Sengoku Era of America’s Christianity. XD

      2. thejeff

        That’s relatively mild by Catholic Papal standards. There have been times when there were multiple Popes all claiming to be the actual real not retired Pope at the same time.

        1. StClair

          “It was signed by all three Popes!”

  61. kater

    I’m glad you mentioned the schism!
    I grew up in a very open United Methodist church (think community center that talks too much about God) and my parents still attend. There’s talk of splitting from the main organization over support (or lack thereof) of queer people.
    I’m very proud to report we got protested by westboro because of our views!

  62. Keulen

    I’m finding Dina super relatable in the last panel, probably because I was never very religious growing up. My family mostly went to church on major holidays like Christmas when I was a kid, and we stopped going entirely when I was 13 or 14.

    Also, “I Am Not Understanding the Conversation More Than Usual” would make a good book title.

    1. Schpoonman

      Definitely Willis when writing dialogue: “Let’s see how many days in a row I can get commenters to say ‘Damn, this line right here would make a good book title.'”

  63. Wakeangel2001

    for once I’m on Dina’s side of the conversation, wtf are these two on about?

    1. Schpoonman

      Religion is a hell of a drug.

  64. Heather

    Baptists over here are generally those who don’t engage in infant baptism. I’m guessing the US is the same. But as I recall they are hardly unique in doing so anymore. Though I’m guessing given their name that they were one of the first to do that if not or at least the first out of the ‘successful’ flavours of Christianity. (Successful being: more than three families in some weird guys basement and never anything more than that).

  65. Thulcandran

    To be fair, the main guiding principle of Baptism as a sect (not a practice) is that every person is equal before God and there is no central authority or clergy or anything. So gay-friendly Baptists might be outside of the totally-not-a-sect Southern Baptist Convention, but they’re more legit than Al Mohler & co if you look at what Baptists actually historically stood for.

    I still get really mad when authors/tv shows &c try to incorporate Baptist stuff because that’s what they’ve heard about and then, like, talk about “defrocking” or “priests.” Just say Methodist! It’s much easier!

    1. Phil Srobeighn

      Came to the comment section to make this comment. Thanks.

      Al Mohler used to be cool. What happened Al? I almost moved to Kentucky for you.

  66. mrnoidea

    Figure I’ll chime in on the Baptist/Methodist divide people are bringing up in the comments above.

    The Baptists did a thing around town where they write “positive” sentences in chalk on various sidewalks. Someone said it was a way to spread good will in the community.

    And then you come across some chalk that says, “If you vape or smoke, you’re the reason our world is worse off.”

    Not very positive.

    1. Axel_Grease

      I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

  67. Erika

    Huh. I’m trans/lesbian and getting married in my hometown United Methodist church* later this year. I didn’t realize that being LGBT-friendly was such a standout feature of that denomination specifically.

    *I’m agnostic now, but the place has sentimental value for me from going basically every week until age 18.

    1. Heather

      Congratulations!

    2. a/snow/mous/e

      yayyy 😀

  68. Cmd1095

    don’t worry Dina we’ve all been there

  69. Jonathan Holland

    Haven’t read the whole comments section so I may be repeating but United Church of Christ, Presbyterian, and most mainline Protestant churches are gay friendly. This includes most “high churches” which would be much more formal in their format.

    1. Heather

      I grew up in a Presbyterian church. Something must have changed a lot in the last few years without me looking (but given a sermon I heard online a few months ago probably not) or maybe US churches are v different but I can say without a doubt they weren’t gay friendly. They put forth petitions against gay marriage. At best for hey we’re all ‘it’s okay as long as you don’t actually act in your sin and remain miserably celibate’. I mean I never heard them put forward the idea it was possible to be converted to being straight but… low bar.

  70. GeekRyuu

    Wow. Way to be utterly passive aggressive to your supposed best friend, Becky. I’m sure that’s just the way to draw her back to the church and not completely away from you.

    1. anonymsly

      Right? Joyce is ABSOLUTELY the person who meekly submits to bullies. In no way is she someone whose biggest moves have all been huge EFF YOUs to authoritarian types trying to tell her how to live or what to feel and think.

  71. SeasideSun

    Where as many people in these comments grew up in LGBT friendly Methodist churches, mine was extremely transphobic and homophobic.

    Also fun fact: the United Methodist Church is on the verge of a schism over accepting queer people or not.

    It’s fun knowing your very existence could cause a schism

  72. Heather

    Sorry if I’m rude it’s just my mind went ????? When I saw Presbyterian as stated as being cool with gay people. Because given my past that’s really not the case. At all. I think the only possibilities are like heterosexual marriage or nothing. Granted I’m not American but still. Like apart from not seeming to promote conversion camps (though also never mentioned either) I only ever heard two fire and brimstone sermons in my life but like… Presbyterians? ????? They may not be as bad as certain Baptists but they are not good either. Not in Ireland/Uk anyway ime. No idea what their take on trans people would be but probably not good. Like I guess if the infamous Southern Baptists get an A plus in evil Presbyterians here are like a B minus. Calvinism doesn’t exactly produce nice people sometimes. At best I’d say it was better too than the ironically named free presbyterians. And like this was a mainstream presbyterian. Which had these sorts of discussions across Ireland so it wasn’t even just this specific church being weird.

    But seriously did the American Presbyterians really become gay friendly? Like not just a few but to the point it’s more common than not??? Really

    The idea of Presbyterians being progressive at all is hilarious to me and kind of melts my brain. Like these people have their roots in similar ideas to the pilgrims colonials. Unless there’s been another schism since my back was turned like the Methodists are having apparently. Or American Presbyterians are like completely different now after centuries of spreading from their origins in Scottish/Irish/other European colonists/immigrants. Kind of like divergent evolution into a completely different species.

    1. Heather

      Whoops meant to reply to myself above there to J Holland.

    2. Gandalf007

      There are multiple branches of the Presbyterian church in America. One of which literally calls themself that, I believe (the other is something like PCUSA, and maybe there’s a third?). I’d have to Google which is which, but one is fairly liberal, at least somewhat gay friendly, and the other is not all that different from Southern Baptists/Church of Christ/etc. Sadly I think the latter is the significantly larger denomination.

      These branches likewise exist with the Lutherans, and wouldn’t surprise me if this also applied to the Methodists. But given that your exposure to Presbyterianism is probably the likes of Ian Paisley, I completely understand your bewilderment.

      1. Heather

        Pretty much got me pegged there. It’s just the idea of the church perhaps most responsible for the DUPs popularity, a party I might add which is so awful even English conservatives think they’re freaks and rightly so, being considered one of the nice ones is just… what. What?? But yeah at least on offshoot even if small has had a few centuries to change a lot I guess. Though some don’t. It does make me wonder now about whether like other offshoots with the exact same names are different in various countries. I mean I do remember talk of presbyterianism internationally but like it was mainly an all island affair that had the big communications. Overall I’ll just say: It is not fun growing up with an aunt who thinks ian Paisley is the beesknees.

  73. Michael Haneline

    One of the few good things about my obnoxious religious upbringing is that I understood this page’s joke.

  74. Andyman

    This is totally talking about the Bloomington First United Church isn’t it?? It used to be called the Bloomington First Baptist Church United Church of Christ: totally an “identity-crisised” “baptist” church with a choir that is gay-friendly… And I went there when I lived in Bloomington, and I sang in the choir!

    1. David M Willis

      ha, yep, that church is the building we see becky/lucy/sierra leave a few strips ago

      1. Andyman

        I went there around 2001-2005. If you went there when you were in college you might’ve heard me in the choir or bell choir, haha. Now I’m 39 and also live in Columbus!

  75. All-Purpose Guru

    God DAMN, Dina. Friggin’ AMAZING.

    If Becks can withstand THAT I’d be amazed.

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